But how did Pato go about earning the coach's trust? I don't think (as per the dst chronicle) that Carletto accepts sexual favours from anyone but Kaladze.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) U remember how pissed everyone was coz Carletto benched him, saying he has to learn to change. The difference is the boy, put his head down and did as he was told and worked ard, instead of just doing whatever was working for him at that moment. Maybe the Brazillian contingent there meant that wiser heads managed to impress it on the boy, while for Yoann there was no one he could look upto or hang out with as a mentor.

But the point is, Carlo told the kid(Pato) to change and he did. While I don't think Yoann put as much effort in it. But of course, I don't know for sure. It sounds like the logical 'behind-the-scenes' incident to me, since there was no other obvious technical deficiency in Kuff-kuff.

Pressure? You know that Pato had 10x the pressure as was on Yoann. He was to bear the brunt of the striking responsibility (with R99's injury woes), the weight of the crowd and the biggest of all crosses, wearing the number 7 once worn by the greatest Milan striker in recent history. Yoann had a cakewalk in comparison. He wasn't being asked to replace anyone. He was just asked to slot into the side and learn a bit, play as per the team plan, let his enormous talent be tempered with a little discipline and tactical knowledge, really. Pressure...sure...but nothing like what the duck handled.

I find this really really annoying Jack... you are trying so hard to blame it on Gourcuff! I don't know who's at fault but while I'm on Yoann's side I'm leaving some space for it could be his own mistakes. You on the other hand and everyone else that's pro-Carlo don't even contemplate there's this tiny possibility that Ancelotti could have made a mistake! Truly ridiculous...

I'm with Jack on this issue. +1 to what he said.

The mistake that Carlo's made is that he didn't hold Yoann's hand through the crisis. It's something a coach like SAF or Wenger would have done. Maybe it would have worked, who knows! I had a similar discussion with kurt on this. I don't think Carletto is perfect. It's just that I don't think his 'deficiencies' are the ones being pointed out here except for the 'Errs on the side of caution' thing.

Happy?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

You know I couldn't live with the fact that you're annoyed at me. What about Fay? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cry.gif)

What crisis? We don't know if there was a crisis, we know nothing! Maybe Carletto did not like Gourcuff because the latter was a c___ or maybe the former was being a c___... maybe there was nothing between them and Carletto just did not believe in him which no one can blame him for.
The thing is, you sound dogmatic, it's like there's no possibility that Carletto might have underrated him or that he did not like him and whatever.
Also, you cannot put Pato and Gourcuff in the same frame. The Brazilian is a forward and as long as he scores goals he can't be kept out, not for long. Plus the fact that he's being played does not mean he could not be a c___ himself... do not forget that Carlo needs to play him, there's no one at his level in the team... I don't mean to say the above is true, my points is you're quick to praise Carletto for anything good that happens in the team but never criticize him for the bad stuff.
And if you truly don't think Carletto is perfect then you'll be able to see that he does not pick his squad through meritocracy. If he did, Seedorf would have been left out numerous times. That alone was against Gourcuff and yet never mentioned as a negative...

Anyway... Gourcuff or no Gourcuff it does not matter... as long as the club is doing a favor to Seedorf there's no point having a player that can replace him in the squad.

So you only talk to me because of Fay!!??! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Shut up! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cry.gif) You had me on 'What crisis?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

I still think you're overreacting with Seedorf, but ok...we'll disagree. Coz I don't think anyone in the team does what Seedorf can. And most times Seedorf hasn't played we've been bad.

This post has been edited by Jack Sparrow: Jan 12 2009, 03:01 PM

Come on man you don't agree that Seedorf is picking games? He's obviously not even trying in some matches you should not turn a blind eye to this. I'm not saying he's always bad but in my opinion he has collectively been one of our worst players in the past three seasons.
I'm not saying Seedorf is the only one who's not performing but his displays are highlighted by his laziness. I'm not overreacting, you know when I do that. We're hardly great when Seedorf's playing so I can't see how a bad performance can be attributed to his absence as you suggest.
More than Kaladze's mug I hate laziness and lack of effort... at least the Georgian is trying it's that he's not good enough. Seedorf can be more than good but if you're fair you'll admit you've watched at least one game where Seedorf deserved to be punished for showing lack of effort.

This post has been edited by dst: Jan 12 2009, 03:22 PM

@ Jack

Maybe "trust" wasn't the right choice of word. I meant whatever happened, Pato is scoring and Carlo has no excuse bench him (like he did at the start of the season (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). Pato plays and he is getting better every game.

Yoann on the other hand never got so many minutes on the pitch to prove himself and Carlo never showed enough patience.

Anyway, we're repeating ourselves. in your eyes, [and the rest of pro-Carlo ones], he is something as perfect as God and, like dst said, every good thing that happens, he's behind it, and every bad thing that happens, it's others' faults. I just don't believe in that.



@ dst

Agreed with everything you said. (except for one thing, Pato is not a ****, you @ss! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/realmad.gif) )

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) that's not what I said!

For what it's worth, Pato seems to me one of the nicest lads in the squad.

I think you're taking things a bit to the extreme, zeddie. I don't think Carlo is perfect - far from it - but I also think that Yoann had good chances in his first year with Milan (he played, for example, the full 90 in both home games I went to that year). The second year? Not so much. There's clearly a rift of sorts between him and Ancelotti and yes, I am naturally going to tend to believe the coach more than a 20 year old French kid. Because I do mostly trust the coach, even if some of his recent tendencies are making it harder for me to do so - though even there I suspect a bit of it may be his being ordered to field lineups. The xmas tree formation, otoh, is simply not defensible, full stop.

why is it automacally assued it was something gourcuff did and not carlo? if anything it makes to sense to assume carlo is the one who started this, afterall we all know how he runs this team, meritocracy is secondary with him, first you have to be his little buddy.

and if he thinks doing those extra dribbles is bad and is one of the main reason he was shipped out then wtf is R20 in the starting eleven or seedorf? it's ridiculous he's so strict with some, and others can slack off as much as they want and get away with it.

No, it's not fair. But I don't think there's necessarily as much of a meritocracy as some do. Is there one? Yep. I also think there's a club owner who, to an extent, dictates who will play. That's just as damaging to me as a coach who insists on a christmas tree formation. As to why I tend to take Ancelotti's side - I don't recall him having had significant personality issues with other players.

WTF???

Even if. Ya' think a 20 year old kid is superior to Ancelotti?? Ahh, to hell with it... if Carlo has a problem with him, he'll deal it out. He did that pretty good for the last 7 years and that made me trust in him.

If you think you can that easily compare Seedorf and Ronaldinho to Gourcuff...be my guest. But that's far from reality.

agreed completely. Yoann had his chances and when I saw him play i was wasnt exactly thrilled . Besides , being loaned out is probably the best thing that happened (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

who said it was aquestion o superiority?

seedorf has been mediocre at best for the past 3 years, and r20 has been on a weight loss plan.

gourcuff he's kid, i dont expect him to have the world at his feet, but ask any team which of three would they pick and 9/10 would say gourcuff over him unless their main concern is to sell jerseys.

This post has been edited by Habitant: Jan 12 2009, 04:31 PM