If you go back 10 years England, Italy and Spain were easily the top 3.

Juve, Real, Ourselves, Man Utd, Valencia, Arsenal - these were the big top sides (I've forgotten a few).

A lot has changed.

Germany has grown big time after a very stale period and is rightfully inserted as one of the best leagues around - it doesn't have the glamour of other leagues but Bayern, Borussia, and maybe Leverkusen and Schalke are very strong at the moment.

England has fallen badly - Utd and City are pretty hopeless in Europe these days, and Arsenal and Chelsea's CL displays this season were horrible. The domestic league is very entertaining with some spectacular players but it's not translating to the continent.

Spain's marquee pair still do well in the CL and domestically while Barca dominate, Atletico have grown from Real's diddy neighbours to quite possibly one of the top sides in Europe thanks to the miraculous Falcao.

Lastly Serie A - while its teams are not feared like they use to be, Milan and Juventus' CL endeavours will be earning the league big time in the co-efficient and where Inter have deteriorated, Napoli and Fiorentina have filled that gap nicely. The old guard of Inter, Roma and Lazio are in no man's land but Napoli and Fio (and the domestic resurgence of Milan) have made the league a lot stronger.

So, feel free to dissect. What do you guys agree with? Where am I miles off target?

Miles off target? You are on target as much as millimeters. Not much to disagree here, save for the fact that Ateltico will be down to where they were in a few year's time. And well, we're on the right track to become the best club in Europe (and consequently the world) in less than 5.

Yeah, I agree Atletico's current fortunes are almost certainly a temporary ascension. Fueled, like I say, by the God-like Falcao.

One player has elevated them from strong to easily as good as anyone else in Europe on their day.

It will be good to see them in the CL next season assuming they hold onto him.

I also forgot about the improving Eastern Bloc clubs - while Russia and Ukraine's leagues are not marquee, their overall club quality kinda is.

Dinamo, Shakhtar, Spartak, CSKA, Locomotiv, Dynamo etc. EDIT: And Zenit haha.

And let's not forget the very robust Portuguese League which always produces strong Sporting, Benfica and Porto sides. Or the Dutch - not what it was but still a competitive league which produces fine players.

Dutch and Portuguese leagues are mediocre. The French league has also degraded bar PSG's (unnatural) recent emergence. But yes, the Bundesliga nowadays is a super-league with great talents, high revenues and increasing appeal. Bayern are probably the strongest European side at the moment. England has recessed in terms of European competitiveness despite Chelsea's endeavor last season. La Liga is unwatchable. But the biggest decline of all has been experienced by the Serie A, once the strongest championship in Europe, nowadays a very average league with very average teams. Juventus have just returned to dominate recently, Milan have started a new renovation process that will take at least a few years, Inter have fallen apart after the treble, whilst the various Napoli, Lazio, Roma, Fiorentina etc. can be easily defeated by anyone. I don't know if it's just me but the quality of European football has quite decreased compared to a decade ago.

France has never really been a strong league - early 90s saw a powerful Marseille and we've had spurts of a strong Monaco, Auxerre and PSG - plus Lyon of course, but generally France hasn't really ever been regarded as a big strong league.

I'd say bar the deterioration of Lyon's fortunes in recent years France is more or less where they have been for a long time. Slightly better than middle of the road but nowhere near a Spain, England, Germany or even Italy.

I agree with some points but I feel some in football are too quickly to react nowadays. It seems 1 bad game makes a bad team, 1 good game seems to make a good one.

I'll start with the Bundesliga, because it's one thing I feel gets throw around a lot. It's simply nowhere near the Premier League or La Liga. I'd say it's far closer to Serie A than it is to the other 2. Bayern Munich have always been a very good side, there's no questioning that. But 1 team doesn't make a league. Dortmund have had a good season in the CL - but this is the exception, not the rule. When was the last time they did anything in this competition? In fact on a broader scale, if you take away Bayern Munich, Bundesliga sides have only made 2 QF appearances in the past decade (Schalke twice) before this season. So again, this is currently the exception and not the rule. If they get 2/3 sides in the QFs on a regular basis, then we can start talking about it being a powerhouse, until then it's just potential and that's all.

Premier League seems to be the opposite of the Bundesliga for me. While people are quick to jump at the Bundesliga and praise it no end, it seems people are quick to do the opposite to the EPL. Let's forget that the European Champions are from the EPL, let's forget that Man U have appeared in 3 of the last 5 finals and that England have had 8 finalists in the past 8 years - they're having 1 bad season, so it's on the slide of course! Heard it all before.

Atletico seem to get similar praise. They won the Europa League, but didn't even finish in a CL place last season. They're having a good season, but as I keep saying it is the exception and not the rule. If they finish top 4 for a few years running and reach the last 8 of the CL on a reuglar basis, then yes, I'll say they're one of the best teams in Europe. But right now, they're a Europa League quality team, as shown by their league standing over the past few years. Valencia do a good job on their limited finances and Madrid and Barca are obviously giants and that's why overall they're a top league.

Serie A has clearly not been good in recent years and this year having 2 QF CL teams is promising, but it needs to be happening on a more regular basis. I think with the top sides in the 3 previously mentioned leagues and money sides in other leagues like PSG, it will be hard for anyone aside from Juve (and possibly us) to realistic make the last 8 on a regular basis.

Basically as a rule for everything - prove you're more than just a 1 hit wonder before you can expect plaudits. As we saw with Inter, a coaching change can make a huge difference. What if Dortmund lose Klopp? Are they still going to be the same? Will their players, who'll likely be less close to the new coach than they are Klopp, going to stay? Will Guardiola be able to acheive similar success in Germany as he did in Spain? Will Juve be able to build upon these past 2 seasons? Will City ever acheive the potential they clearly have to make the latter stages of the CL?

Completely agree Kurt. But I do feel the same way about Serie A as you do about EPL. Not quite on the same level, but thanks to Milan and Mourinho, Serie A has had a good run in the CL in the last decade. And let's not forget what happened to Juve was nothing short of extraordinary set of circumstances that held Serie A back in more ways that we can imagine. That is also the exception and not the rule and I can see Italy dominating in Europe again soon. They had a great showing in the Euros too and building on that I think Italy as a whole are on the way up!

If Bundesliga was only Bayern, then it wouldn't have a higher coefficient than the Serie A. Many teams have been doing well in the EL for a while now, and I think we're gradually witnessing the transition of those results in the CL. Bayern, Dortmund and Schalke topped their groups this season, and most likely all 3 will qualify for the QF. German football is thriving, that's for sure.

As for the Premier League, it's not only this season, Kurt. Last season ManU and City didn't make it out of their groups in an embarrassing fashion, whilst Arsenal got kicked in the Round of 16. True, Chelsea did manage to win the competition, and as much as I praised them for their achievement, we all know it was just a fluke. This season pretty much confirmed the trend. English teams just don't seem to be a real challenge anymore. Liverpool have been AWOL for a long while, Chelsea and Arsenal are very weak, ManU are not as strong as when Ronaldo was there, and City are still a big question mark. In the past, any of these teams bar City could easily make it to the semis, but nowadays they don't really pose that much of a threat anymore.

Agree and disagree.

Agreed on the Bundesliga and that they have positioned themselves to being on the forefront of Europe. As a Serie A fan, it hurts to say this but they fully deserve that 4th seat and that is all there is. They are worthy of it.

As for the EPL, I believe you're picking and choosing incidents here .. It happens that teams get disqualified earlier on in the competition. Italy has lost representation, Germany has not won the CL in over a decade, while the EPL has 4 CL trophies in the same time span. Not saying one is above the other, but I believe the Bundesliga and EPL are the top two (if not for the Spanish Classicos) in Europe.

Since when? They've had a team in the Final every year since 2005 with the exception of Inter-Bayern and there was even an all-English Final. United have made 2 finals post-Ronaldo. 5 different English teams have made the CL Final since 2006.

I think the massive success of the EPL seems to work agains tthem for some reason. For example England have 4/5 big names in the past decade or so (United, Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Liverpool). If 3 of them do badly, the EPL is somehow weak - despite the others doing well. Germany have 1 good team, they do well and apparently it's a good league.

In the past 2 seasons (current and last) Chelsea won the CL and went out in the groups. Dortmund went out in the groupd and are currently in the QFs - One is seen as a great team for the future why the other is seen as weak - it's absolutely baffling to me.

Since last season. Did you not read my post? Only a few seasons ago English clubs were the ones to defeat, now they're not that big of a deal to handle. Again, I'm not taking Chelsea's win into consideration, cause it was an absolute fluke. They barely made it against Napoli, they sucked against Benfica, there were insanely lucky against Barcelona and the same could be said against Bayern. I do love underdogs though, and Chelsea's win really satisfied me. But it's not like they were the best team of the competition, far from it.

The best team doesn't always win the CL though, that's the beauty of Cup football.

Going by the quarter finals, English sides have fallen away horribly in the CL. That Spurs are the only English side still in Europe by way of the Thursday Cup shows a real shift in power in the past few years.

Milan and Juve have done Italy proud in the CL and the league might be on course to regain a CL spot but there's a lot of work to do there to snatch it back from Germany.

Spain are the European powerhouse - even Malaga, who are a very strong team but nowhere near as good as even Atletico, are still in the CL so Spain have 3 sides still in it.

Right now, if you go purely by the country co-efficient which is the past 5 years in Europe:

Spain
England
Germany
Italy
France
Portugal
Ukraine
Russia

I didn't even type out my post having looked at that order but the coefficient pretty much confirms more or less exactly what I said.

Funny, Sportmediaset ran an article some days ago saying how Spanish clubs were in trouble this season as Barça, Madrid and Malaga could very likely get knocked out and only Levante make it in the EL, but it happened the exact opposite; all three CL teams made it to the quarters and Levante lost to Rubin Kazan.

Chelsea? Newcastle?

I made a flamingo up there.

It's like a c0ck up only bigger.

It's understandable. They're 2 teams easy to forget.