Picture of starting lineup of the European Cup final
from left, top row: Paolo Maldini, Marco Van Basten, Ruud Gullit, Carlo Ancelotti, Frank Rijkaard, Giovanni Galli
bottom row: Franco Baresi, Roberto Donadoni, Billy Costacurta, Angelo Colombo, Mauro Tassotti
This is the Milan club voted best club team of all time by World Soccer Magazine.

Here's the citation:


I'm probably one of the few boardmembers old enough to remember watching this team play. They were magnificent. Though they didn't become the Invincibles until a couple of years later, they were already very, very special.

Today's Milan is a good side - not perfect, but good. Even so, I wonder who, if any, of them would make Sacchi's starting XI and whose place they would take.

I wish I was witnessing that Milan, instead of this Milan...

Thanks.

I think Pirlo, Nesta and Kaka would make it. For all the other positions they were covered.

Mmm. That's hard. Is Pirlo a better regista than Donadoni was? Possibly. Nesta for Billy? ehhh. I dunno; Billy was always less heralded than Baresi or Maldini but he was no slouch. Kaka for who? Gullit? Possibly. My thought was that Gattuso would stand a chance of pushing Ancelotti or Colombo out.

I thought of it. I was thinking of a fulcrum of Pirlo and Rijkaard. With Marco playing just off Kaka. I thought of Rino vs Carletto...but Carletto got the nod coz of his missile goal. Rino couldn't do it ever. Colombo..now there's a thought.

I know about Nesta vs Costacurta...but I just believe at similar ages, Nesta would have done better with Baresi next to him.

Rino for Colombo thats it for me

I sure would have enjoyed watching this Milan team.
Hey acid, did you find those old school games btw?
And while we're on the topic anyone else has Classic Milan Matches or Matches of Sacchi's Milan that they're willing to post up on the videos thread? (It would be greatly appriciated)

I'd say Pirlo, Kaka or Rino would/could have a chance. But... the only "weak" links Milan had were Colombo and Galli. I think Dida in his best days was better then Galli in his. And we must not forget this Milan had depth also (depth in the terms of the 80-ties, meaning a proper reserve keeper and 6-7 players) - Filippo Galli, Alberigo Evani, Roberto Mussi who later became a Parma legend and not to forget P.P. Virdis.

It was the particular 1987-88 season were they conceeded only 14 goals in 30 Serie A matches. Interestingly we won that Scudetto with 3 points plus. And even more interesting is:

- 7 of the 17 won matches were wins with a 1-margin difference
- we struggled against the weeker team, or even worse against the to-be relagated ones - Avellino, Empoli, Pisa, Verona...
- we won or drew almost every "big" match, meaning against Napoli, Inter, Juve and Sampdoria. Only exemption, loosing 2-0 to Roma,...

...Hmm
Interesting!

I think i see where you going with this Fillipo

Good things come to those who wait, Trini. That's another one of my motto! No really, I've asked some of my friends to send me some files and tapes, let's see what they gather. I also did find some classic matches on torrents while I was looking, but I've very weary (pun always intended) of downloading torrents. We'll see.

I'll probably post them in the video section once I do get my dirty little hands on them. Stay tuned.


I'd take Dida over any of our previous keepers, any given Sunday! That, and finding ways to accommodate both Nesta and Kaka in this squad. And finally Ronaldo at his peak would make things a little more lethal.

I be sure to keep a look out for them!

I'd perhaps bring Sebastiano Rossi forward a couple of years earlier than he arrived, but he >> Dida to me. (Rossi holds the record in Serie A for longest period without conceding - 929 minutes).

As for Nesta, it'd be a really tough choice to bench Billy at his best and put him on, but a good argument could be made. Benching Baresi? Uh. No.

Kaka for Gullit? Ehhh. One Ballon D'or winner for another. Hard to pick there but Gullit had an amazing chemistry with Van Basten and at least for myself, there's no way I'd ever replace MVB in a starting XI.

As for Fillipo's point, I think what he was trying to get across is that while the 1989 Milan squad is considered one of the (if not THE) best club teams of all time, they didn't always play the sort of football that you see in tapes of the semi against Real Madrid. They had their share of 'win it ugly' games too.

(For the record, I personally prefer the 91-92 team that became known as the Invincibles. Some lineup changes and Capello as coach.)

Well thats understandable! I mean its quite difficut to be perfect.

^^^

Yeah...that was a good team too. But even that team followed the philosophy of first making yourself impossible to beat...it was after all a Capello team.

Did they plays unconvincing football too?

That Milan, they say were one of the best teams ever, feared by every opponent. this Milan... not many teams have fear of. not many people regard as a great team [right now]. only Milan fans, especially hardcore ones

Yes, actually. They did play unconvincing football. Even this team - or the Invincible incarnation under Capello - played unconvincing football at times. The Capello incarnation also had to deal with the ankle injuries that eventually ended Van Basten's career. As for teams fearing Milan, I think it's perhaps a matter of interpretation. One might assume from your post, zd, that you don't think anyone fears today's Milan. Fair enough. Compared to Sacchi's Milan or the Invicibles, I wouldn't either (if you look back in this thread, I'm not too sure any of the current players would even make Sacchi's team). I do think there's a healthy respect for Milan however. It is a good (though not a great) side.

Which team is causing much fear nowdays in Serie A?

And by the way, how convincing would you threat a 0-1 Milan win against Pisa, scored in ET via penalty? Nota bene, Pisa's best players then - Dunga and Nista (the future Parma GK)

None. There top ones (eight or so) are too close for that to happen. We would have caused fear if we won our matches comfortably. A goal in the 6th, 20th and 73rd minute. Two goal wins, comfortable wins, easy on the nerves victories. A touch of pride, a bit of a hubris. We're that good, seriously. No other side in the Italian league matches us both in technique, star power, player unity and overall class.

It's just that we haven't gelled it together. We're weak. Teams think they might be in with a chance. We don't play games scaring opponents, striking fear in their heart. They come to San Siro and are not imitated. Instead they kind of enjoy it knowing our form at home in the last two years. For them we are a team that isn't aware of it's prestige and potential. We carve out wins, instead of enjoying toying with our opponents (small teams, I mean) like we used to in early 2000s.

Maybe it's something you've not noticed, and it doesn't make you any less of a fan. But I'll be here knowing that we could be so much better. Not Sacchi Milan, not pre-Istanbul Carlo Milan. But Milan, nonetheless. A warrior squad that had the killer instinct to kill off the match by taking the match to the opponents. Now, we score one, and invite them to come hit us.

Interesting.

Now, do you think the Sacchi '88 Milan storke fear into the smaller teams or do we just apply a aposteriori claim? Only match Milan wom back then with a very high margin was winning against Como 5-0. Our striker duo Virdis and Gullit scored 11+9 goals, while for example Napoli's duo of Maradona and Careca scored 15+13 or a less known duo of Torino, Toni Polster and Gritti 9+7.

I don't neccessarily think Pescara feared Milan at San Siro while they knew Milan drew the leg before with a solid Verona, and the week before with Torino at home. But, there is a big, significant difference. The G.Galli-Tassotti-Baresi-Maldini (Evani)-F.Galli defensive line. While I assume that a defense by it's sole purpose and meaning cannot strike fear into bones, I agree that their record can be frustrating or in best case de-motivating.


Firstly, I think we're TOO MUCH aware of our p&p and think that problems will solve always just like that. Also, you're idealising the 2000 era. I cannot recall SO many occasions we "toyed" with the small teams. I remember our scudetto sucess in 1999 - it was a damn hard won scudetto on a verge of a miracle, somehow we surpassed Lazio by 1 point. We were guided by Boban and Leonardo. Still, we found it hard to win against Bari, Vicenza, etc.

Of course people may still be afraid of Milan, but certainly not as much as did they back in late eighties (or do they? ). beside that, I meant 'this Milan in comparison with that Milan'.

Today I see bottom table teams confidently talking about causing us problems and it's not just talk, they walk the walk. remember last season and even this season.

I'm not trying to be an @ss, but how come a team that sometimes played unconvincingly, sometimes ugly, many times with a 1-goal margin, etc. is considered probably the greatest of all time? please someone clear that up for me.



There definitely is. to fear from playing Milan is one thing, to have respect for Milan is another. I just don't get the impression these years teams fear Milan THAT much. maybe this season things will change though!

How come? Interesting question. I think it's called positive-selection-memory. But beside that, the Sacchi Milan made a unbelivable run of matches without defeat, without conceeding many goals and with big names.

In other words, 30 years from now someone could easily read our big name squad, think about are 15-matche-without loosing strike (and if we win the scudetto) conclude it was a feared and devastating Milan.


Other then this, here's what Matteo Sereni thinks:


Don't think we need any translation. Originals are always better.

A translation attempt (from Google) on what Fillipo posted:

Simply because they know they are playing a team that has racked up two champions league, a scudetto, an italian super cup, a european supercup, a club world cup, and an italian supercup. Not one team in Italy come close to how decorated this team is, which has contributed a significant amount, just as those teams of Sacchi and Capello, to the Milan history

The respect for Milan is always there, there is no team that goes out and shackles Milan to the ground. There is so much that is being overlooked here, so much like the philosophy, the history, the experience, the pedigree, and a squad capable of walking over most teams in Europe. Yet there are many changes in this team, I would start judging when the second part of the season starts .. It's too early to tell the potential that this team could unleash.

I like the sound of that

We did. We stroke fear by our impeccable and water-proof defense. Teams feared us as we only allowed 14 goals all season. This time we can't even boast that. Sure I can understand what you're trying to say that it wasn't attractive football. But it wasn't boring either. The matches were played at 200% intensity.

Now we play at 50% intensity. After we score the first goal that is. That's why I want our (smaller) opposition to score the first goal, and we hit back by scoring two. Against big teams I'm more than happy with these 1-0 wins because the team that plays good usually wins. The inters, Juves, Romas, Fiorentinas, etc. Against part timers, we play crap and win. It was fun for the first few matches, those lucky wins, but now I'm starting to get worried for the tough matches ahead.

And trust me, if we win the Scudetto pulling off these shenanigans, it'll be our luckiest title. Ever.

Acid, did you watch the games in the late 80s? How can you say with certainty that the games were played at 200% intensity? The Real game was, certainly. The derby and the Juve games, certainly. But against, say, Ascoli or Piacenza?

A couple of points: Because you had two Italian teams taking it out at each other with tight and closed-spaced football, players had to be on their toes. There were only 16 teams in Serie A, less room for error. Today, we know if we drop two points, the contenders might too as there are eight extra matches to play for.

Thirdly, the Italian league was number one at that time, full houses, aggressive football was must. I've seen enough videos and full matches to witness how aggressive the crowd and overall gameplay was. Sure intensity has different meaning, and I didn't mean it in the physical sense of things, per se. Sure there might have been some lull or lucky matches, but overall the football standard was higher than this. This, as in our last five or six matches. We have only 1 player in the top 15 goalscorers up till now. Our second best scores more goals via penalty than in open play.

I guess the easy way to put it is this: I want to watch a tension-free match seeing us play at our full potential, rather than a last-minute-goal thriller against low-mid table team. Still, for me, it's too early to decide. We've got a very small sample size of 5-6 matches, key players are missing, and we have lots of new faces that have to gel together. If this continues till after the winter break and we starting losing more unnecessary points (we've already lost 8 up till now) then I'll start getting worried. I have it in me to watch some more of these sorts of games.

We'd all like that, acid. However, I think that perhaps some expectations are unrealistically high about how the team plays, the results they get, etc. Only once in a very rare while will the REALLY special moments happen (89 semi v madrid, 94 final v barca, 07 2nd leg semi v MU) and I think that only in retrospect will observers really appreciate just how special and good a team actually is (or, alternately, how truly awful they were).

Well yeah, that's the beauty of these classic matches - they happen once in a very long while. And I'd keep it that way, no reason to change that. Otherwise they'd lose the beauty, these special moments. But as far as performance in the league goes, I know there is room for improvement. I want that to happen, slowly if it will. But no denial, from the coach and team that is. And that's putting it realistically.

Instead of saying that everything is alright, we're winning no need to panic, etc. We had this attitude last season, and look where we ended up. The same could happen again. I'm not even sure members here (or most fans in general) have an idea of how much revenue we've lost because of that. Millions and millions of it that could be used to invest in new players. We got smacked by Arsenal in the CL and lost 25 million, at least. Another big chunk because of us not qualifying and reaching the quarters this season. The board of all parties knows that, they're the ones running the show, after all. I'm not criticizing, or even being pessimistic - far from it. I did enjoy the 1-0 inter win, the Lazio performance, even had fun in our last few slow-tempo single goal victories.

I don't want Joga Bonito football, circus showmanship, cheap street fights with opposition players, 5-0 thrashings of small teams, 3-player attack formations, media wars - I can get that from dozens of other clubs. Heck I don't even want the Scudetto or the UEFA Cup. All I want is for the team to be brave. Brave in everything they do.

To have courage. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Actually, having looked at the club's financial statements, I do have a pretty good idea of how much has been lost.

Courage? That's a good way of putting it, Acid. For what it's worth, I sense a change in the club this year. We may not have the super mojo of the Sacchi era, but we're closer to that than we were last year.

I hope we get there. The sooner the better.

You see, Tennie, I'm a guy of simple taste. I enjoy dynamite, and gunpowder, and gasoline! No scratch that. I enjoy nice, free flowing, spirited football. And that all comes from having courage. Courage to fight, to dash it out with opponent teams in all 38 matches, courage to analyze, to understand what's wrong, and finally the courage to correct it. If one doesn't, it creates a stalemate. And that I don't want, because if things stay stale it usually leads to pretty disastrous results (not unlike our predicament last season). Plus, uncertainty for the future. That's even more disturbing. Particularly for a club as big as ours.

I still have hope. I'd be lying pretty bad if I said otherwise. Things. Will. Improve.

In my opinion a team like Milan, or any top team, should be winning AND playing good football. Average teams should expect one of the two, and bad teams should be happy to get either. It's not as black and white as that, but that's what supporters of top teams should expect, great football + wins.

playing attractive football to me is a bonus...winning is everything, of course i'd like to see us thrash 5 or 6 goals past Lecce and Chievo but i want us to win simple as that..if the rest of the season is scrappy 1-0's and we win Lo Scudetto i won't care we will be champions again...if we played attractive football and finish 5th again but someone posted never mind at least we played attractive football they would get slaughterd to everything is realitive Milan is winning club and thats needs to start again if the football is good then thats fine and dandy but i want to win!!!

Hmm...Reminds me of Arsenal's recent football over the years...Beautiful football with not much to show for it.

Who died and made you William Wallace?? What next? A battle cry for freedom??

Well I think the team has shown a lot of courage by bouncing back from last season. It would have been easy to do a Madrid...point fingers, sell everyone, sack the coach and buy a new team. This is more level headed and mature.

Actually, yes. I'm waiting for until the Torino match, before I do that.


That can be subjective. We don't quite have the same team from last season. So many new players in key positions, Ronaldinho, Zamborghini, Flmaini, Antonini, Borriello, Bonera (finally graduated), even Pato (considering he played only six months last season), Sheva, Senderos, Abbiati, it's not even funny. Besides, the shock and awe of missing out on the CL did work in our favor, somewhat.

Like I said, as long as we're winning, I won't complain. Much.

I do agree with most of that. The problem comes for me when we're playing like we are and we don't win anything, what good comes from that, no titles and no enjoyment. If we do win the scudetto, by all means, play as much scrappy footballas you want!

There's also the small matter of dropping unnecessary points when you play scrappy football, which I'm sure you'll agree with. Play lousy games, get lucky wins, and sooner or later you're going to regret it. One thing luck is particularly good at is running out. At the wrong time too, I might add. At least once we're back to playing confident and attractive football we'll be the masters of our own destiny.

We've lost 8 unnecessary points up till now, while we should have at most lost 2 (by drawing against inter). We haven't had any of our particularly tough matches yet. I'll hold on to passing the final judgment until the crunch hour is upon us - when we're deep into crucial games and UEFA cup matches. Mark my words, if we play like this by then, we'll be out of the race sooner than you can say Forza Milan! Which I hope we won't be: Nesta will be back, Pirlo in form, Ronaldinho and Kaka reach their optimum potential, and our strikers (Boriello in particular) gets regularly on the scoring sheet.

I think the key to this is the oppositions opinion of you. If they come up against a team who is winning every week, and plays great football, the team feels beaten before they even set foot on the field, which makes it even easier to pick up the win as they've almost conceeded defeat. If you're a team winning but playing poorly, however, the opposition team will be more confident in taking points from you, and generally confidence leads to better performances.

So hopefully we start playing better football, and we'll be winning games before they've even started, in a way.

Very well put, Kurt. If only, playing confident football, makes the games a tad easy.

Sacchi is absolutely spot on. We're 3 points behind, when we should have been at least 3 ahead. That's not the way to win League titles, playing catch up. Okay, maybe Roma likes to have things this way, but not a club (and squad) like Milan.

I'll only be happy when we capture the top position, and keep it for a couple of months.

I think Jack should post a monstrous reply to Sacchi.



Exactly what han says all the time!

Sacchi told the truth. But it isn't what motivated us (or better, me) to step into a discussion.

Na, he's too busy downloading 'Pirated' stuff (pun always intended) from Rapidshare.

It's alright then