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misha
QUOTE
Serie A has been described as a retirement home for the world's best footballers by the English media. Goal.com's Salvatore Landolina, though, insists that the English game should take a look at itself before taking aim at other footballing cultures...

A number of English journalists have taken swipes at Serie A this week. One piece in particular has caused controversy. An article in The Times by a respected writer criticised the Italian game, describing it as, “a retirement home for ageing footballers or a get-rich-quick scheme for those who lacked ambition,” and “a long way short of the Premier League.”

The writer went on to mention the arrivals of Gianfranco Zola, Fabrizio Ravanelli and Gianluca Vialli to the Premier League as well as the fast change in trends and power. Fast change? That was twelve years ago. All the usual negativities were drawn up - violence, Calciopoli, scandals - as he attempted to shoot down Calcio in order to provoke a reaction.

And the writer has the cheek to say Italians are trouble makers! So why start such trouble?

Renzo Ulivieri, a former coach, summed up Oliver Kay’s rant best.

“It’s the pot calling the kettle black,” said the coach. “England has a nice League, but if you look carefully they have foreign coaches, foreign players and even foreign club owners from all over the world.

“I really doubt they are in any position to criticise Italian football. Besides, I certainly wouldn’t say that Ronaldinho or Andriy Shevchenko are old.”

This spat comes just days after another top English journalist Patrick Barclay slammed England manager Fabio Capello for not understanding English culture, insisting that Steve McClaren was a better choice as the country's national coach.

If Steve McClaren and every other former England coach understood the English culture so much, why have the Three Lions have not won anything since 1966? They didn’t even qualify for Euro 2008, yet their understanding is clearly better than Capello’s. The perspective of English culture is so great amongst English coaches that they run away when they hear about an England manager’s vacancy. It's the job that nobody wants. And as the nation did with bus drivers in the 1950’s, England has looked abroad for someone to come in and do the job.

Yellow-Belly Tune

Serie A is making a comeback. Ronaldinho and Jose Mourinho, two superstar names, moved to Italy because they want a real challenge, where trophies are won by hard graft on the pitch rather than bought by millionaire foreign owners who have turned the English game into a casino, with 'Russian roulette' the game of choice.

Serie A has problems, but Italy doesn’t brush everything under the carpet and start picking on other countries in an attempt to deflect attention from the mire surrounding several top Premier League teams, as well as the perpetual mess the England national side finds itself in.

The number of imported talents in the Premier League has reached record highs, with the emphasis on bringing in non-English players and managers, rather than on developing youth for the national side. While there's nothing wrong with that, when things go wrong the same foreigners take all the blame. They're used as scapegoats because certain people at the top of the English game don’t have the guts or the humility to say, ‘it’s our fault for trusting the other man in the first place.’ Instead, they unbutton the white shirt and dance around to the yellow-belly tune.

The Germans were blamed for Euro 96, Maradona was blamed for 1986 and the trend continues as England continues to take aim at foreigners with Capello the latest victim of the English media’s 'point the finger at everyone but ourselves' masterplan.

It’s perhaps ironic that Kay mentioned hooligans and violence affecting the game in Italy, but he fails to remember that the whole hooliganism movement began in Blighty during the 1970s and spread around Europe like the plague. He also never mentioned that a Premier League footballer tried to be a role model to younger players and fans by having a fight outside a McDonalds restaurant one Saturday night.

Films such as the “Football Factory” and “Green Street” examine footballing violence, but they weren’t made in Italy.

The problem in England is that journalists don’t really understand football outside of Britain. The culture is too insular and such ignorance is only likely to help people like Kay dig a deeper hole for themselves.

Salvatore Landolina
kurtsimonw
QUOTE
Films such as the “Football Factory” and “Green Street” examine footballing violence, but they weren’t made in Italy.

This sums up the article for me.

They spend the whole article saying "England always says this about Italy, blah, blah. and doesn't hide it's problems" then aims it's finger at England for footballing violence? As if violence never happens in Italy. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Whoever wrote this is as bad as the English media that leballed Italy a retirement home. They're just as bad as each other. Neither league is "better", neither league is "worse".
han2503
QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Aug 30 2008, 11:36 PM) *
This sums up the article for me.

They spend the whole article saying "England always says this about Italy, blah, blah. and doesn't hide it's problems" then aims it's finger at England for footballing violence? As if violence never happens in Italy. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Whoever wrote this is as bad as the English media that leballed Italy a retirement home. They're just as bad as each other. Neither league is "better", neither league is "worse".

Very true kurt, it's 2 different styles of football, that connot be commpared, some people like to watch the fast paced EPL some like to watch the tactical but relitavley slow Serie A, everyone is entitled to having his own taste. personally I like watching both but for me it gets harder to watch in both leagues once going beyond the top 4, maybe Fiorentina in Italy and a bit Spurs in England (no offense tongue.gif ). No one will watch Wigan or Lecce just for the fun of watching it imo, no matter what anyone says about their own respective leagues

England right now is at the top imo, not because of quality of football and star players but in terms of money being pumped into the league. It's a cycle, first it was the Italians, then the Spanish and now it's Englands turn.

But imo, the situation in England is more precarious because of all these foreign owners and depths that the clubs have. Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal, Liverpool and some other teams that are not in the top 4 are all in staggering ammounts of depth. One bad season or an owner like Abramovic deciding to pull out and a club could end up being sent into the abyss.
kurtsimonw
QUOTE (han2503 @ Aug 30 2008, 11:57 PM) *
I like watching both but for me it gets harder to watch in both leagues once going beyond the top 4, maybe Fiorentina in Italy and a bit Spurs in England (no offense tongue.gif ). No one will watch Wigan or Lecce just for the fun of watching it imo, no matter what anyone says about their own respective leagues

Spurs? You missed out with Villa last season then!. We were the 3rd highest scorers in the league!

But I agree to an extent. It's different for me since I come from a country with a top footballing league, so I know a certain amount about smaller sides in the league, since we get used to them. SO for me, watching Bolton vs Wigan or something isn't so bad. But I do find it harder watching smaller games in other leagues. Like I'd struggle to watch Lecce vs Reginna or something. But a general football fan will usually only find big interest in watching a game involving one of the big teams in each league.

QUOTE (han2503 @ Aug 30 2008, 11:57 PM) *
England right now is at the top imo, not because of quality of football and star players but in terms of money being pumped into the league. It's a cycle, first it was the Italians, then the Spanish and now it's Englands turn.

Yep. I'm sure the cycle will keep going around. But Italy needs to invest more money in it's football, or do something to attract the fans. Was disappointing to see Udinese-Palermo with empty seats all over the place, hopefuilly the clubs start to spend more and attract better players, giving the fans more reason to want to go. But with the World as it is at the moment, I suppose fans just can't afford it.

QUOTE (han2503 @ Aug 30 2008, 11:57 PM) *
But imo, the situation in England is more precarious because of all these foreign owners and depths that the clubs have. Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal, Liverpool and some other teams that are not in the top 4 are all in staggering ammounts of depth. One bad season or an owner like Abramovic deciding to pull out and a club could end up being sent into the abyss.

Yes, it can be bad. I remember Lazio, Fiorentina and Parma (I believe those were the 3) spent stupid amounts of money or had massive trouble with debts, I'm sure it'll happen to more English teams. Leeds were the first and won't be the last. Though I think the interest in Liverpool and United around the World.. they just make so much money it's amazing. I think Chelsea are in the most trouble.
Zed.D
La Liga is the #1 right now.
acid911
QUOTE (zdrossoneri @ Aug 31 2008, 10:37 AM) *
La Liga is the #1 right now.

That depends on who you ask. smile.gif Some of the biggest names are playing in Serie A (Kaka, Ronaldinho, Ibra, Buffon, Nesta, and so many others). Other leagues have them too, but I think it's very close at the top.
Zed.D
It's not only about names (which La Liga is second to none in that aspect IMO). it's about the style of play. you mix Serie A (technique and tactic) and EPL (speed and fleetingness) and you get La Liga. it has both Serie A and EPL's characteristics in it: tactical, technical, speedy and attacking...

I hope Serie A returns to glory days asap, but I can't not admit these days I find the most pleasure in watching La Liga games, even if it's bottom table teams vs. top teams.
kurtsimonw
I don't think La Liga has much tactic involved if I'm honest. Serie A is the best in that respect, even the EPL is more tactic involved than La Liga.

Serie A: Technique & Tactic
EPL: Speed & Strength
La Liga: Speed & Technique

No league is 'better' than the other, in my opinion.
Zed.D
Tactic is not much involved in La Liga? ohmy.gif ohmy.gif I honestly think you are very very wrong about that!!
kurtsimonw
I find it very: They attack -> we attack -> they attack -> we attack. I fine it very untactical if I'm honest.
han2503
QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Aug 30 2008, 11:20 PM) *
Spurs? You missed out with Villa last season then!. We were the 3rd highest scorers in the league!

But I agree to an extent. It's different for me since I come from a country with a top footballing league, so I know a certain amount about smaller sides in the league, since we get used to them. SO for me, watching Bolton vs Wigan or something isn't so bad. But I do find it harder watching smaller games in other leagues. Like I'd struggle to watch Lecce vs Reginna or something. But a general football fan will usually only find big interest in watching a game involving one of the big teams in each league.

I do watch Villa at times but not a lot maybe a couple of games here and there, mostly when they face the top teams

Personally I don't like watching any of the smaller teams in any of the 3 leagues play against eachother. La Liga it's just Barca and Real, sometimes Sevilla and Valencia, but it's rare.

QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Aug 30 2008, 11:20 PM) *
Yep. I'm sure the cycle will keep going around. But Italy needs to invest more money in it's football, or do something to attract the fans. Was disappointing to see Udinese-Palermo with empty seats all over the place, hopefuilly the clubs start to spend more and attract better players, giving the fans more reason to want to go. But with the World as it is at the moment, I suppose fans just can't afford it.

It's not just about the fans though. It's how the TV rights deals are split, the big clubs get huge deals while the smaller clubs are left with the scraps. This results in no money for the smaller clubs which in turn results in no improvement of the stadiums, and bringing in more quality players.

Still, I'm a firm believer in the whole cycle system that football is constantly in. Italy or Spain could just find themselves back as the top league in a couple of years.

QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Aug 30 2008, 11:20 PM) *
Yes, it can be bad. I remember Lazio, Fiorentina and Parma (I believe those were the 3) spent stupid amounts of money or had massive trouble with debts, I'm sure it'll happen to more English teams. Leeds were the first and won't be the last. Though I think the interest in Liverpool and United around the World.. they just make so much money it's amazing. I think Chelsea are in the most trouble.

Maybe not Man U because they have a lot of marketing power, but Liverpool, they could see it happening especially now with building the new stadium.
nnloso
italy can criticize england, but not the other way.

why ?

because italy won more world cups, that means italy has a better national team. in champions league and uefa cup combined, if i am correct, italy has more trophies than england. therefore, italy is superior than england.

to answer your question, can england really criticize italy ?

its a big NO!!!
Giancarlo
For me, I don't think England has any credibility to criticize us. They accuse of having a retirement home, yet we produce far more home grown talent than they do (just look at our U-23 squad for example)... I also see bright things happen for Italian football in the near future. There have been a number of high profile signings for Italian teams this season... and frankly, I didn't see a team like Chelsea or Man United do much this transfer season beyond Deco and Berbatov, respectively.

And how old is Deco exactly?

The hypocrisy reigns supreme in the English press.
kurtsimonw
QUOTE (nnloso @ Sep 4 2008, 03:45 PM) *
italy can criticize england, but not the other way.



QUOTE (Giancarlo @ Sep 4 2008, 04:52 PM) *
The hypocrisy reigns supreme in the English press.

I have to disagree with these two points.

First off: The English Premier League is the strongest league in football. 4 different English teams have made the Champions League Final in the last 3 years, that's a pretty incredible record.

As for the hypocrisy comment, Giancarlo, did you not read my post at all? Italy basically labelled English football "Land of the hooligans", forgetting this country has very, very few football related problems. We can't say the same for Serie A, though.

Calling Serie A a retirement home? That is not right in my opinion. But it's the same a smany people just say the EPL is all about money, which is also wrong.

QUOTE
For me, I don't think England has any credibility to criticize us. They accuse of having a retirement home, yet we produce far more home grown talent than they do (just look at our U-23 squad for example)... I also see bright things happen for Italian football in the near future. There have been a number of high profile signings for Italian teams this season... and frankly, I didn't see a team like Chelsea or Man United do much this transfer season beyond Deco and Berbatov, respectively.

And how old is Deco exactly?

The hypocrisy reigns supreme in the English press.

The England Under-21s are a very, very strong team. So to say we produce little home grown talent is silly. The England Under 21s did very well in the Championships last summer, actually qualifying in a group which involved Italy, while Italy were eliminated. So it's not like this country has no future, is it.

United and Chelsea didn't do much this summer. Do you know why? Because they finished 1st and 2nd respectively both in England and Europe.
Giancarlo
QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Sep 4 2008, 06:11 PM) *
I have to disagree with these two points.

First off: The English Premier League is the strongest league in football. 4 different English teams have made the Champions League Final in the last 3 years, that's a pretty incredible record.

As for the hypocrisy comment, Giancarlo, did you not read my post at all? Italy basically labelled English football "Land of the hooligans", forgetting this country has very, very few football related problems. We can't say the same for Serie A, though.

Calling Serie A a retirement home? That is not right in my opinion. But it's the same a smany people just say the EPL is all about money, which is also wrong.


That's ENTIRELY subjective. The EPL is not the strongest league in football! Not a chance.

And I think Italy is right in that regard. I think Italy has the credibility to say that. And I do think the EPL is all about money and little class. That's my perception.

QUOTE
The England Under-21s are a very, very strong team. So to say we produce little home grown talent is silly. The England Under 21s did very well in the Championships last summer, actually qualifying in a group which involved Italy, while Italy were eliminated. So it's not like this country has no future, is it.


No, it doesn't have future. Italy was represented in the Olympics... where was England? That's the U-23 team...
Tennie
England couldn't GO to the Olympics, Giancarlo as England per se doesn't have an Olympic team - Great Britain does. If England DID have an Olympic team, they would have qualified for the Beijing games and Italy wouldn't have. I'm no fan of the English NT but their kids are rather good.

As for the hooligans comments...well, things are currently worse in Italy. That said, it's far from perfect in England -- I do recall hearing, for example, of knifings before/after Spurs-Gooner games and it's my understanding that it isn't entirely uncommon for there to be a bit of handbags before a game.
kurtsimonw
QUOTE (Tennie @ Sep 4 2008, 07:57 PM) *
England couldn't GO to the Olympics, Giancarlo as England per se doesn't have an Olympic team - Great Britain does. If England DID have an Olympic team, they would have qualified for the Beijing games and Italy wouldn't have. I'm no fan of the English NT but their kids are rather good.

Exactly. That's why the Under-21s tournement had a 5th place play-off last year, so either Italy/Portugal could take our place in the Olympics. If only our first team played with the same appreciation and willingness of our kids..

QUOTE (Tennie @ Sep 4 2008, 07:57 PM) *
As for the hooligans comments...well, things are currently worse in Italy. That said, it's far from perfect in England -- I do recall hearing, for example, of knifings before/after Spurs-Gooner games and it's my understanding that it isn't entirely uncommon for there to be a bit of handbags before a game.

No, the fans over here are no angels either, far from it. I was just pointing out that it's a bit hypocritical to label the British hooligans - regardless of how bad we may be - when Italians are as bad. Talking of hooligans, Villa have QPR in the Cup in a few weeks, we played two seasons ago and a long standing Villa stewart died in the violence after the game. Hopefully both sets of fans don't think it's funny to fight after the game this time.
Suprpippo
youre right. also atleast we have home grown talents while argubly the best player in the EPL is potugese
kurtsimonw
QUOTE (Suprpippo @ May 12 2009, 01:18 AM) *
youre right. also atleast we have home grown talents while argubly the best player in the EPL is potugese

I'm failing to see your point.. The best player in England is Portugese? SO what, the best player in Spain is A*gentine and the best player in Italy is a Swede. blink.gif
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