Not by chance do you mention some great teams, very successful, but losers nevertheless. As soon as we get reinforcements (real ones) we gotta turn the tide and try play more constructive football.

Can't call La Liga champions losers, Pippo.

Not clear what you mean. Atletico and Dortmund were both champions. Leipzig are top of the standings. Liverpool have just started.

No no, he was just present at their training grounds. I saw the pictures. Training with them would make absolutely zero sense since he's a Milan player. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Exactly why some fans were so annoyed. There was definite confusion over why he was there anyway, but it's not helped with relations between he and our fans.

Liverpool were the dark horse this season. With City getting Pep, the unknown of Leicester, Utd spending the cash and getting Jose while Chelsea spent solid and got Conte, no one really paid attention to Liverpool.

I did though. I knew they had the tools to be a real contender - not the absolute best squad but a manager with all the likeability of Carlo but the steel of Simeone.

But they essentially are. I get your point. They won the La Liga, and considering the competition they had, it's amazing. But they'll never surpass that step and become true big teams. They will always be the club that brings you to the team that's the real deal, the real package - Champions League titles, history, constant success.


Leipzig is just another Kaiserlautern at best. The Bundesliga right now is a complete and utter joke. As for Dortmund, they'll always be the supply-club for Bayern München, for God's sake, look at Lewi, Götze, Hummels... Then, when Bayern sometimes make a hiccup, they'll maybe be there to pick up the pieces. Once in a while.

You're being incredibly harsh! There are literally only two clubs on earth these days that really are the 'real deal', and that's Barca and Real.

Even marquee clubs like Man Utd and Bayern cannot get the truly best players - yet of the above four what's the most number of UCL finals among all four? Two - jointly held by Real and your chums Atletico. Not even Barca have managed that.

I do understand where you're coming from, in focusing on the traditional names of the sport and the pedigree they will always hold. But there has been a sea change these past five years with Borussia and Atletico not to mention Juve featuring heavily at the summit of football while Bayern, Man Utd, Barca, ourselves and even Inter have all utterly faded.

The only place players can go from Atletico, Chelsea, Utd and Bayern is Barca and Real, and that's because those two are a law unto themselves.

Atletico, like PSG and Dortmund, can consider themselves at the top table these days, even if the absolute summit is Barca and Real. And you can add Leicester and Leipzig to that too!

To be blunt while Europe has traditionally had England, Spain, France, Germany and Italy as its premier leagues, nowadays none of them holds the same allure they once did.

England struggles with quality - a total lack of it. It has money, but cannot attract the truly great players. The standard of football is modest for the outlay spent.

Germany struggles with an imbalance of power - Bayern remain the top dog and everyone else is competing for second place. It's a strange league which occasionally produces a Leipzig.

Italy is regaining a little credibility at the moment, with the return of us and Roma as credible top 3 teams. But it's a hundred miles of the glory years when it was alone at the top of world football.

France is a lesser Germany, with PSG its benchmark while everyone else jostles for position. Monaco and Nice giving it a nice fight this year and hopefully that will spell a stronger period for the rest of the league, but generally it's just not a competitive or especially high quality league.

And lastly Spain is probably the best now - it has three marquee clubs in Barca, Real and Atletico, while Sevilla flirt with being great too. It's got the most number of strong clubs while the rest of the league is pretty solid as well. But it's not filled with about 8 super sides like it used to be - once upon a time it was Barca, Real, Sevilla, Villarreal, DLC, Valencia, and Sociedad.

Every league has suffered in recent years. Standard of football has gone down, and that's never more evident than the lousy Euros and world cups we've had in the past four years.

But players still want to join ManU and especially Bayern, any player in the world would accept their offer IMO bar a few. How can you say Bayern and Barca have utterly faded? Barcelona won the CL against Juventus two seasons ago?

Yes, you are right. We're living in a bipolar world of Real and Baca domination, and thanks to Guardiola even Bayern wasn't able to mix in.

But the "pack mentality" teams is our main topic. It doesn't come as a surprise and it isn't by coincidence that all those clubs ain't exactly the biggest names in their respective leagues. Dortmund only recently got competitive and on a constant good level. Atletico wins the league every 10-20 years. Yes, two CL finals, both lost. That's like Valencia. Yes, I'm very harsh, but I think there's a reason traditionally big clubs like Bayern or ManU (up until now) avoided such a approach.

Back to our main topic. I think Milan is playing ugly and undefined football primarily out of necessity. The "pack mentality" hasn't yet gel with us and become our core approach, which is good. We have to make changes ASAP, because this tactic is just Montella doing his best with very limited resources. This is why I think we have to sign more different midfielders plus one alpha defender.

Leipzig were one of the highest spenders in Germany this summer and Liverpool have spent roughly £400m since 12/13.

I tend to side with Fillipo on this and it's very much a modern day thing. A team has a small spell of success and suddenly they're one of the best clubs in the World. The same goes for players, people are already throwing ridiculous labels around for Donnarumma despite him having not played 50 games in his career. It's just the modern obsession of having to label everything and throw superlatives around.

Dortmund and Atletico are good examples of this. Dortmund won a couple of titles domestically, but outside of 1 good CL season did nothing else - including a group exit in a pretty weak group. Atletico won 1 title, but have fared better in the CL. But the fact is, to be a success you have to have success. Being the 2nd best team and usually finishing 2nd isn't success. Being the 3rd best team and usually finishing 3rd isn't success. I wouldn't call Roma and Arsenal successful for winning a few trophies but usually finishing in their standard league positions.

Mainly because Bayern showed little in Europe under Pep and Barca are no longer the benchmark of European club football. No one club really is. But Barca's (admittedly earned) rep precedes them so they still remain a law unto themselves. Players don't want to join Man Utd - Pogba was an exception based on his formerly being a Utd player and the utterly stupid fee they were willing to pay, and Ibra has, sadly, been a dud there. No truly great players have joined Utd in the past few seasons.



Man Utd have been a shambles since SAF left. Their allure is gone.



I absolutely agree. I think this system is effective but not great to watch, and Montella is getting the most out of what he has - which is terrific management. And I think next window is essential to bring in a few players to enhance it and develop it. Couldn't agree more on your choices of position requiring filling.

Looking less and less likely that we will get Chinese money for the Winter transfer market. Up to B&G to fund it, plus they will need approval from the future owners. Not good ...

Goddammit.

Look, if our targets remain Europe, we are fine as we are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

If our targets remain CL, we need a midfielder or we need Bertolacci to suddenly turn into Modric. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)