Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: han2503 Nov 26 2014, 05:27 PM

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 27 2014, 12:04 AM

Not always easy to face Udinese. But after a series of matches without a win, we really need all 3 points here.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 27 2014, 12:13 AM

Even if we win it won't change anything until Pippo changes system and realizes his mistakes. But even if he does, the time when he's supposed to impact the players has passed and no improvements have been made. It's our own fault for relying on rookie coaches.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 27 2014, 12:14 AM

So, in your opinion, what are the mistakes Pippo made?

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 27 2014, 12:33 AM

In short, he hasn't managed to impact the players. I remember his initial words after he became a coach, that if we lose to an opponent, it should only be because we are inferior to them, not because we are less determined than they are. Or something along those lines. Consider this team now, 5-6 months after he took over, and I don't see any of that. I don't see excitement and desire to win, but players being lazy and individualistic, not acting as a cohesive unit, unwilling to sacrifice themselves for their teammates and honor the shirt they're wearing.

On top of that, he's also completely messed up with formation and player selection, man management and his stinky attitude after every game really gets to me. I knew things would end up this way after that Juve game. It was too obvious.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 27 2014, 12:02 PM

Then again, to me your expectations are way up high. Rarely coaches can inspire and mentally change a loosing team without any true star, leader or captain. A rookie coach to do so? That happens maybe few times in few years, no more, no less.

I think Inzaghi is only a fraction of the whole story. Which goes up to the management, but also down to the players. In all honesty, I think we have a very limited team and even worse - a bunch of characterless players who are not up to it to take a leader position and mentally change our pattern.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 27 2014, 02:01 PM

It can be done if the coach is up to it, but Pippo clearly isn't. I don't want to hate the man, and I never will because he's one of my most favorite players ever, but we have to be objective here and accept that so far he has completely failed at his job. The numbers are there, the quality of our showings is clear to everyone's eyes, his mistakes too. I'm not being harsh, I'm just stating things as they are.

And yes, like I said, it is mostly the management's fault. Just because it worked with Sacchi and Capello doesn't mean it will always work. Those coaches had fantastic teams to rely on, and thus their inexperience didn't count as much. Inzaghi instead has to deal with an average side, without any true stars or leaders, so his job will be ten folds more difficult. Simply put, he's not the man for the job. We needed a more experienced coach, someone like Mancini.

Posted by: Danny Nov 27 2014, 02:14 PM

A little unfair on Sacchi. He inherited a great squad and bought well (MVB & Gullit), but this was a Milan who hadn't won the Scudetto in 9 years.

You can have a world class squad but still not achieve without a good coach. As said squad did not under Liedholm then caretaker Capello the previous season.

While I can defend Pippo regarding how shite our squad actually is, he has no excuse for mismanaging what he does have and turning a potential top 5 team into a midtable shambles.

Posted by: Rossoneri7 Nov 27 2014, 09:41 PM

Too much emphasis is being placed on results from a rookie coach. There are a lot of moving objects in a football team, Pippo was always going to get into such a situation and only time/mistakes will allow him to learn and grow the team.

Frankly speaking I am impressed with how Pippo has done thus far, I expected Milan with more losses. That being said he is no Ancelotti. He needs time, and just like players need time on the pitch to get into the match rhythm, a coach needs games under his belt.


Think this should be a decisive game for morale.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 28 2014, 05:24 PM

Diego Lopez; Bonera, Rami, Mexes, De Sciglio; Essien, Muntari; Honda, Menez, El Shaarawy; Torres.

Gazzetta has Zapata instead of Bonera and van Ginkel instead of Muntari.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 28 2014, 07:56 PM

How Bonera can ever see the light of day in this squad after all the antics he pulled off this season is beyond me.

Sent off twice, a gazillion mistakes, what does this guy have to do to get frozen out by Pippo? Walk the ball into our net?

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 28 2014, 08:15 PM

That made me

Posted by: Danny Nov 28 2014, 10:38 PM

I backed him all the way last season, despite your criticisms of him, but this pre-season and season he's been diabolical.

Pippo doesn't agree and thinks of him as our best defender in some respects. Same idiocy sees him select Muntari every match.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 29 2014, 10:20 AM

I seriously just cannot get it with some players.

Just cannot understand how someone who plays like Muntari does each week and makes the mistakes he does can be considered a sure starter while Van Ginkel for example is not trusted to start or be given a fair chance

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 29 2014, 11:09 AM

The only reason I can think of that Pippo doesn't play MvG is because he's on loan without the right of purchase, and he definitely will want to return to Chelsea by the end of the season. But even that is not a plausible excuse considering how crap we are and that we need all the help available.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 29 2014, 02:39 PM

De Jong, Montolivo, Abate, Alex and Muntari not available for this game. De Sciglio has problems too.

Posted by: Danny Nov 29 2014, 04:48 PM

The November projections for Monto's return were clearly plain wrong. Doubt we'll see him till next year at the earliest.

As for De Jong, Abate, Alex and Muntari...

Poli Mexes Rami Bonera

-----Essien---Bona

Honda---Menez----SES

----------Torres

I'd be stunned if any of MvG, Bona or Armero start. Bona most likely but zero chance on the other two.

And given Zaps comments I'd be amazed to see him start. If he does it'll be him in Rami's place and Poli ahead of Bona.

Pippo's ego more important than the team.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 29 2014, 05:24 PM

Mediaset has Armero and MvG starting. They probably will.

Diego Lopez; Bonera, Rami, Mexes, Armero; Van Ginkel, Essien, Bonaventura; Honda, Menez, El Shaarawy.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 29 2014, 07:12 PM

This Menez in the false 9 position is getting more and more irritating by the second

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 29 2014, 07:41 PM

Because Torres has been doing so well?

Posted by: Danny Nov 29 2014, 09:53 PM

Ok more and more claims of MvG, Armero and Bona all starting. Could be the best midfield we've had all season.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 01:21 AM

Not with Essien instead of De Jong.

Posted by: Danny Nov 30 2014, 02:36 AM

But usually there's De Jong, Muntari and, depending on formation, Bona or Essien.

In this formation take away both De Jong and Muntari and add Essien, Bona, and MvG.

But then, guess it depends on 4:3:3 or 4:2:3:1

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 09:52 AM

It's not like Menez goes into free-scoring mode when he plays in that position. And I don't like that he's given so much freedom to roam about and do what he pleases when he's playing in this position, either play him as a winger or none at all


I think it will be 4-3-3, Essien will just replace De Jong, with MvG and Bona on either side of him

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 10:30 AM

Problem is, Menez has never been played as winger so far, which is his natural position. Pippo either plays him as "false 9" or SS, and in both cases he's allowed to roam freely and do whatever it pleases him. No wonder he's become such an egotistical pr*ck when the coach gives you so much freedom.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 02:25 PM

Diego Lopez; Rami, Mexes, Bonera, Armero; Van Ginkel, Essien, Bonaventura; Honda, Menez, El Shaarawy.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 02:57 PM

F'cking Zapata on the bench and Bonera starting in the centre!

Enough said about Pippo and meritocracy/fair chances to everyone FFS

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 02:59 PM

Yes, it's beyond logic at this point how he keeps playing Bonera. Old buddy, I guess.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 30 2014, 03:01 PM

I think he's trying to make Bonera as kind of a leader. He has something of the old Italian defender way in him, I have to admit, but well...he's simply not good enough, never was. So it's more then a long shot, what's Pippo trying here.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:01 PM

Bonera at RB

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 03:01 PM

Bonera is playing as RB.

Also, what's with the third outfit? So ugly.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:03 PM

Sorry, but no.

That simply cannot fly anymore.

He's proven to be one of our most undisciplined players so any "leader" excuse simply cannot fly

Old Italian defender? That's a slap in the face to the traditional Italian defenders

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 30 2014, 03:09 PM

Did I say it's good or should be supported? I only offered an explanation.

Armero looks awful up until now. No sense for position at all, attacking too deep.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:10 PM

Close, nice play there, I think it was Bona that played SES through

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:13 PM

Listen, if this was someone other than Pippo you wouldn't be trying to excuse it AT ALL. For me trying to give a feeble explanation for this is trying to defend him, and at this point he's become indefensible in his selections

As for Armero, I've always told Danny (when he wanted DS dropped for him) that I prefer DS because Amero is simply not a defender, but to shift an entire defence around just so he wouldn't play him for me is ridiculous, if DS is out Armero can do the job, simple as that

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 03:14 PM

Wow, you're so quick to judge.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:17 PM

Btw, Van Ginkel looks great and our midfield looks much more fluid, but let's play Muntari again when he's fit

I think that crossed the line...

Posted by: William405 Nov 30 2014, 03:17 PM

Did they count the goal?? My stream shut down!!

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 03:17 PM

That was clearly a goal.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:18 PM

Should be a goal up!

FFS what is that idiot ref doing there next to the goal if he can't even see that FFS?

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 03:18 PM

Nope.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:21 PM

Playing well so far

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 03:35 PM

We're not playing bad, but we seem so mellow. More grit and determination is necessary.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:38 PM

So close again!

Posted by: William405 Nov 30 2014, 03:38 PM

So clooooseee, Menez!

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:39 PM

I don't think we're mellow at all

We're pressing them and winning the ball back quickly, that shows grit

Udinese are just sitting deep and we're trying to break them down, I don't think it's necessary to start rushing as of yet because that usually leads to mistakes

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:43 PM

In all honesty we should be at least 2 or 3 up by now, wasted chances

Plus the very obvious goal we were not given

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:48 PM

HT

Even without scoring, I'm feeling much more confident after watching that than I have all season long, even when we were already 1 or 2 up by now

We're handling them calmly in defence, we're retaining possession much better and we're creating chances

Much better than what we've seen all season long with erratic spells in possession, even more erratic defending and scoring from opportunistic moments that weren't really created through good plays

Posted by: Danny Nov 30 2014, 03:50 PM

Just so I'm clear, MvG and Bona finally play in midfield and that part of the pitch actually looks good?

Well blow me with a trumpet and call me Frank - I'm taking over as Milan manager.

Didn't see most of the first half, sounds like we've played really rather well but just lacked a bit of luck.

How's Armero doing?

(still in disbelief both he and MvG started)

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 30 2014, 03:51 PM

Excuse? Listen, you guys discussed option. X-O said he and Bona are buddies that go way back and that's why he's playing him. I simply offered an alternative option, not meant to be as an excuse at all.

But in all honesty, Bonera has been doing great today. Nevermind the big f***up we're waiting to happen. So far, some very very good crossing from him. Created at least 3 great chances. Torres might actually be needy for this one.



It sure wasn't a judgment. Just an early observation.

But I do know Armero very well. He's acting like he's a winger and not a fullback. Leaving the flank all open for Udine counters.

Posted by: Danny Nov 30 2014, 03:56 PM

So does Abate. It's called being a wingback.

Bit ironic though that you call him on attacking so much, but praise Bonera for the same thing?

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 03:58 PM

Bonera usually does half decently at RB, that being said, he still usually f@cks up at some point

No matter what he does today, it still does not excuse his place in the starting 11, not after the antics of this season

Simple as that.

And no matter what, there should be no justifiable reason for Pippo to start him. X-off was being sarcastic with that but it hurts that it still rings true that the only reason Bonera is being selected if for personal reasons, nothing else. You felt the need to try to justify it but in reality we all know that x-off is right on the money.

Also, we're seeing Van Ginkel today and he's been great imo, our midfield actually looks fluid today and we've registered the best possession stats of the season so far. Coincidence? I think not. So what's the excuse now for keeping him on the bench for all these weeks while Muntari was being handed automatic starts throughout the season? And what will the excuse - pardon me - explanation be for VG getting benched again when Muntari returns? Because we all know it will happen

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 30 2014, 04:00 PM

Is it? Bonera created 3 concrete chances. Armero just bombs forward with no real responsibility. Several times he got caught up wide, but luckily Udinese isn't doing well today.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 04:02 PM

Bonera only created one really concrete chance, the other crosses were all too high and quick and no one could really get close to them

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 04:03 PM

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 04:20 PM

Penalty for us, Domizzi sent off

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 04:22 PM

MENEZ!

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 04:28 PM

WHAT???

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 04:29 PM

Talk about looking for a reason to restore parity!

This ref has been ridiculous

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 04:30 PM

LMAO, what a terrible ref.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 04:32 PM

MENEZ!!!

Great goal

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 04:44 PM

The Spanish commentator in my stream keeps referring to Armero as 'Armentero'.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 04:49 PM

Mexes saves the clean sheet after Armero does a Muntari

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 04:49 PM

Armero is a half decent backup, but there is no way he should start ahead of DS if he's fit

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 04:52 PM

Overall positive performance, although there are still many things that need to be improved on.

On a very positive note though, I don't remember Lopez making one save, routine or otherwise.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 04:54 PM

That's because Udinese were absolutely horrible.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 30 2014, 04:55 PM

That's simply not true. He had some very good through passes as well.

Anyway, good game, good result. Essien with red unfortunate, but de Jong should be at least as good as him there. Hopefully we'll continue to see more of van Ginkel and the rest (Poli, Monto). Pazzo seems motivated and inspired, so next match we could try him from start.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 30 2014, 04:56 PM

And this is what worries me. Not a single shot on goal.

This means we weren't so good, but Udine were just terrible.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 04:59 PM

Yeah, I think the same. We weren't bad by any means, but weren't that good either.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 05:00 PM

We've played against other horrible teams this season and still they made us look like amateurs defensively at least once or twice during the game.

I think we handled them relatively well today, no matter how terrible they were, we usually best our opposition in the defensive department in the terrible stakes


What through passes? He was absolutely awful in the second half whenever ha passed the half way line btw.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 05:02 PM

Don't generalize, Han. No team we've faced this season has played as badly as Udinese did today.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 05:07 PM

Chievo and Parma come to mind. Inter last week were bad as well...

And haven't Udine been pretty decent this season in general?

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 30 2014, 05:11 PM

No. This is their 7th or 8th consecutive game without winning.

You seriously think Inters play can be compared with Udine? Think twice.

As for Bonera, I'd have to take a re-watch. I stand by my initial post, he made a few very good crosses that weren't to high as you said (btw. see Abate up until recent times), but only unfortunately missed (timing). The he had a couple of through balls for Honda/Menez as well. Second half he made only one worth combination, but saying he was "absolutely awful" is just too much han.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 05:30 PM

His passes in the second half simply weren't connecting with anyone, he kept making errors when he passed it forward, he was decent overall today, he usually is at RB, I don't really ever remember him having any awful games in this position, it's when you put hm in the centre that he really starts to f@ck up

But if Abate was the one making the crosses Bonera made today you'd be complaining about how he can't cross. You're mostly looking at something and trying to make it overly positive to defend his place in side, when in reality he really shouldn't be in it

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 06:20 PM

Yet Parma managed to score 4 goals to us. Only Chievo were bad against us, but not as bad as Udinese were today. No matter what excuses you might try to find, Udinese so far have been the worst opponent we've faced, and the fact we managed to win doesn't necessarily mean we played well. Like I said, we weren't bad, but not good enough either.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 30 2014, 06:24 PM

As I said before, I watch closely when our fullbacks make crosses. This is not the problem Abate had. No need to mix it up.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 07:58 PM

According to Mediaset, (1) there's doubt about whether the ball crossed the line or not, (2) there was a clear penalty on Badu from Armero not given by the ref, and (3) Honda controlled the ball with his hand, so there should have been no penalty for us and Domizzi shouldn't have been sent off.

So, in other words, we stole the three points. How nice.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 30 2014, 09:35 PM

My point exactly, even the worst of teams have managed to make us look ridiculous in defence on many occasions

Note that no where did I say that we were great today, I just thought it was a fairly good performances, but I also said there are still a lot of things that we very obviously need to work on


How could there be ANY doubt on whether the ball crossed the line though? It was very clear from the side angle that it did since you could see the entirety of the ball had gone past the post. This is why goal line technology is needed, and it's ridiculous that Serie A is not using it. They talk and talk about improving the league but aside from some small meaningless changes here and there they never really do anything to actually improve it.

I didn't see any handling of the ball from Honda, he was clearly getting pushed and pulled by Domizzi though.

Can't say anything about the Armero foul as I cannot remember it

Posted by: Danny Nov 30 2014, 10:23 PM

Only saw from 35 minutes onwards but it looked really really good today. It looked like what happens when you actually pick decent players in more or less the right positions.

Ratings:

Lopez 6 Looked untroubled from what I saw, don't remember him making a major save.

Rami 6 Comfortable and slick on the ball

Mexes 7 Looked like he had a particularly good match - nothing seemed to get past him - led well

Bonera 6 Didn't see him do much wrong in truth, but then he's not a RB

Armero 6 Not bad for a debut given a total lack of understanding with his team mates.

MvG 6 Again, solid, not overly flashy but composed and cultured.

Bona 6 Just never stops working.

Essien 7 He's looked great two matches in a row now. I thought I'd got him all wrong but he's having a renaissance of a time right now. Red card was just ludicrous.

SES 5 Didn't see him having much impact.

Honda 5 Same as SES

Menez 7 Selfish as always but his contributions made the difference.

(ratings aren't the best this week given I didn't get a full picture of the match)

Subs:

Poli 6 His usual shift

Monto 5 Just great to see him again - another option in the middle

Pazzo 2 Confidence has gone, couldn't score through text now.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 10:43 PM

Yeah, it was a clear goal. The ball crossed the line. No doubts there.

Honda controlled the ball with his hand. I watched up close replays and it was fairly evident.

There was a clear foul on Badu by Armero, and Udinese should have been awarded the penalty. Again, I saw the replay for this.

Were we favored by the ref? Yes and no. I think he was told at half time that Rami's header had crossed the line, so his officiating in the second half was very erratic. He clearly was conditioned by it.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 30 2014, 10:56 PM

About MvG, I thought he did alright, but I was expecting something more from him. Still, you could clearly see that without Muntari and with someone who knows how to utilize the ball our maneuver was much more fluid.

Posted by: Danny Nov 30 2014, 11:04 PM

I knew neither he nor Armero would be miraculous. They know they'll be dropped next match, so motivation isn't high.

Posted by: X-Offender Dec 1 2014, 03:39 PM

Our next three games before the break are against Genoa, Napoli and Roma. My guess is we won't be able to get more than two points.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Dec 1 2014, 03:47 PM

Win against Genoa should be doable. The other two fixtures are tricky, we'll see.

Posted by: X-Offender Dec 1 2014, 04:29 PM

Doable? They're 3rd, and they're the only team that have managed to beat Juventus in the league. It's far from doable. Hence why I think a draw is the most we can get from that fixture, especially since we're playing away.

Posted by: han2503 Dec 1 2014, 05:24 PM

Well, it's his first full game of the season, just based on that I thought he did very well


Well on paper we should be able to beat them, and even if they're third failing to win there would be very problematic for us considering the next 2 fixtures you pointed out.

If we go out against Genoa and can barely muster a whimper it will be out failure not their achievement imo

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Dec 1 2014, 06:48 PM

But football isn't mathematics. I've watched Genoa play a few times this season and they're far from perfect.

Posted by: X-Offender Dec 1 2014, 08:18 PM

Cesena, Empoli, Palermo, Cagliari etc. are also far from perfect, yet we bunked against them. My point is that in the state we are now, every match and every opponent is a challenge. Hence, there's nothing "double", but only question marks.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Dec 1 2014, 10:00 PM

Double? You mean doable

I still think there is. Especially with Monto coming back, Essien doing good and MvG being integrated and used more often.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Dec 5 2014, 11:56 PM

New poll is http://www.milanfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8473&st=0