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> Serie A - Week 7 - Milan - Roma, Date: 01/10/2017 Time: 18:00 CET

 
Jack Sparrow
post Oct 3 2017, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (maldini03 @ Oct 3 2017, 07:25 PM) *
I like this too Jack, but where would you slot Kessie in? I mean he has the potential to be a superstar in midfield - like a
Yaya or an Essien - but this formation you have with the double pivot removes him from the equation.

I think a Christmas tree is our best bet - Suso and Bona behind a striker. They can both sort of play free roles up there drifting wide and central when necessary. But at least with the tree, we have three in the midfield - two more creative players and a box to box.

I think the issue with that would be there is no real modern Seedorf type anymore. Nor is there a Pirlo or a Gattuso but that is a different issue. Seedorf was a unique player. He was a deep-lying playmaker which doesn't exist really anymore. Playmakers, in general, are a dying breed as the game moves towards wingers. Players like Bona and Marchisio are called shuttlers now because they don't play the way that a Seedorf would.


No you're right. That formation I threw in was just to explain what I thought was the only way to get a double pivot working.

I think the idea of a central playmaker has been removed with the arrival of wing forwards, wing playmakers and now Guardiola's new invention - floating #8s (with de Bruyne).

Why? I think it is a reaction to this new tactics of high pressing and defense/attack as a unit. With players constantly needing to run into space, these new positions are very effective, since the middle of the field gets squeezed very quickly.


I think we need a 3-4-3 or a 3-4-1-2. But I'm not sure if Montella can drill our players that way.

The problem with an X-Mas tree is it is a very difficult formation to implement a press-defence in, since that means players will move out of position and open gaps. It will get shown out when we play a side like Napoli or the big European guns, who move the ball very quickly and have generally more skilled players.

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Fillipo Simone
post Oct 3 2017, 05:03 PM
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X-O I think you're mistaken with Kessie. I also think he's not a DM; for one thing he's messing up too often in front of defense to be such a player. I think we need to bench him cause clearly he isn't up for Milan.
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X-Offender
post Oct 3 2017, 08:34 PM
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I think you're being too narrow-focused on what a modern DM entails.

For starters, this is Atalanta's line-up from last season:

Berisha
Toloi - Caldara - Masiello
Conti - Kessie - Gagliardini - Marques
Kurtic
Petagna - Gomez


Kessie was deployed as one of the two men in the double pivot in Gasperini's 3-man defense system. That's where he excelled and managed to have a fantastic season.

It's true, in today's football there really aren't any typical DMs anymore. Players must be versatile in all forms and manners. Take Pjanic at Juve. Anything but a DM but yet plays in that position in Allegri's 4-2-3-1. Or Alaba/Lahm when Guardiola played them in front of the defense at Bayern. Or even Fabregas when Conte plays him at Chelsea.

It's crazy to think that a player of Kessie's presence and physique can't pull that role, especially when he did so last season. A Kessie-Biglia partnership, be it with a 3- or 4-men defense would be just fine. Think outside the box.
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Fillipo Simone
post Oct 3 2017, 08:45 PM
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I'm rapidly starting to think that his breakthrough season might have been a one-hit wonder. The problem is I'm thinking outside of the box: Kessie doesn't have the technique and intelligence of Pjanić or Pirlo, nor the discipline or defensive stability of Desailly. All he has is physique and presence. Hopefully it will be enough to grow a kind of defender Ambrosini/Desailly were, but I don't see more in him. And that's what disappoints me a bit.
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X-Offender
post Oct 3 2017, 09:14 PM
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Give him time.
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Fillipo Simone
post Oct 4 2017, 09:31 AM
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QUOTE (X-Offender @ Oct 3 2017, 11:14 PM) *
Give him time.

Sure, I'm all for that. But the thing is, Milan needs a DM in the starting line up and Kessie isn't one, even though he was signed for a substantial overall fee. That's the problem, IMO he's a too expensive experiment we now have to wait for.
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d'Arc.LP
post Oct 5 2017, 05:27 AM
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I dont think X-Off his wrong about him at all. Kessie actually used to play as CD in the beggining of his career.
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maldini03
post Oct 5 2017, 12:34 PM
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I don't think in the modern game there is a place for a pure DM anymore though Fillipo. The Gattusos, and Inzaghis of the world are too tough to accommodate. Players have to do a bit of everything now, and I think in that respect Kessie has the ability to be a perfect modern midfielder. He is not a Gattuso but nor is he a vanBommel or Pirlo. I think he is a runner - he will outwork most players and will be there to get his foot in as well as popping up in front of the goal and firing off a shot or burying one.

Funny enough as it is, I never thought much of Ambrosini because he wasn't really great at anything but he kinda did a little bit of everything. (I loved him for his devotion to the club of course) - Today most midfielders are Ambrosini just with more technical skill. At least they are much more Ambrosini than Pirlo/Gattuso.
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han2503
post Oct 7 2017, 11:42 AM
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I agreed with you guys about a 3-4-3.

However, for now, we can discuss formations until the cows come home, we're not even getting the basic fundamentals right atm, so the formation isn't the priority here.

The team simply provides zero movement off the ball, therefore making simple passing movements a 100 times more difficult than they need to be. We're too static and as a consequence we're slow and predictable.

We have players who can execute plays better than we had last year and have the ability to move the ball better yet we're worse off than last year. Either Montella is completely out of his depth or the players are simply not buying what he's selling anymore, in which case, he'd have to go ASAP
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Fillipo Simone
post Oct 8 2017, 05:11 PM
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I don't buy into this "modern XY" debate. People used to call Davids and Gattuso the modern dominating DM's not so long ago. Yet, in the same decade the supposed modern players rapidly turned into relics and dino's. I've seen this happen too many time with various players like Simone, Albertini, Rui Costa, etc.

We should all call these things - trends. Milan played without wingers and one could have easily conclude that the "modern" Ancelotti Milan send the old winger position in retirement. In fact, in the late 90's many teams avoided using wingers, just remember the old France of '98. So it's trends we're talking about; brilliant players like Gattuso or Inzaghi would easily find their place in any good team today, there's no question for me about this.

But the thing with Kessie is, he's (IMO) neither. Nor the classic DM nor the "modern" intelligent DM. That's the main problem.
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X-Offender
post Oct 9 2017, 12:02 AM
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Well, (IMO) I think Kessie has all it takes to become a top player. But sometimes it's easy to point fingers at this player or that player when the team as a whole is not performing. When Atalanta delivered last season, Kessie was a beast. The same argument goes for the various Bonucci, Biglia, Silva etc.

We have the elements but we don't have a working unit. And to think that in mid-October we're in such a state of confusion is unacceptable, especially when most of our signings were brought in as early as July.

Sorry, but I cannot point the finger at anyone else but Montella.
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Fillipo Simone
post Oct 9 2017, 12:43 AM
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But it's got nothing to do with pointing fingers. Kessie made numerous mistakes and errors that go way beyond Montella or his poor choice of formation/tactics. Now, one can argue that Kessie is a youngster and that mistakes are bound to happen. I agree. Yet the sheer amount of stupid errors, inadequate moves and overall impression have gave me makes me seriously question his future.

Saying that he's got all it takes to become a top player is tell much and nothing at the same time. Many players have that kind of talent or ability. What precisely makes you think he can be a top player?
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post Oct 9 2017, 06:31 PM
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Because certain errors come from inexperience. But don't tell me you are ignoring also all the great performances he's had. He's inconsistent, but I hope that he'll overcome that with time and the team getting better.
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Fillipo Simone
post Oct 10 2017, 12:57 AM
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Great performances? With Milan? Let's be honest, he had shiny moments and good showings but none qualifies as a great performance.

Yes, errors come from inexperience. But lack of intelligence and a bunch of other inadequacies is what makes me question your assessment.
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post Oct 10 2017, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Oct 10 2017, 12:57 AM) *
Great performances? With Milan? Let's be honest, he had shiny moments and good showings but none qualifies as a great performance.

Yes, errors come from inexperience. But lack of intelligence and a bunch of other inadequacies is what makes me question your assessment.


We were all going nuts over Kessie before the Cagliari game. That was his first bad game, and also our first game towards such the current slump. You could argue that he shined in prior games because the opponents were weak, but nevertheless he's shown glimpses of those performances in subsequent games as well.

The guy just needs to get his footing and gain continuity, and also a team that knows how to play proper football.
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