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AC Milan - Milanfan.com _ Matches _ Serie A - Week 4 - Empoli - Milan
Posted by: han2503 Sep 21 2014, 06:10 PM
Where: Stadio Carlo Castellani
When:
23rd September 2014 @ 8:45pm CET
Head-to-Head Record
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 22 2014, 11:14 AM
According to Tuttosport, Bonera will replace Rami, Van Ginkel might start in midfield, and Torres and Bonaventura will play alongside Menez in attack.
Posted by: han2503 Sep 22 2014, 11:55 AM
Tuttosport? Hardly the most reliable of sources. let's just wait and see what mediaset and gazzetta say
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 22 2014, 12:12 PM
If Pippo plays Bonera again, I don't know what to say...
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 22 2014, 12:13 PM
@Milanello: Menez has a minor thigh problem and he could skip the match vs. Empoli (as a precautionary measure). He will be examined later today.
Posted by: han2503 Sep 22 2014, 01:04 PM
I'd be just as p!ssed off don't get me wrong, but Tuttosport are a ridiculous paper, I'm not going to start yelling bloody murder until it's necessary
Also, Menez being out would be a huge blow.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 22 2014, 02:13 PM
Well, here's Mediaset's line-up. Enjoy!
Abbiati; Abate, Bonera, Zapata, De Sciglio; Poli, De Jong, Van Ginkel; Honda, Torres, Bonaventura.
At least no Muntari.
Posted by: han2503 Sep 22 2014, 02:15 PM
Abbiati; Abate, Bonera, Zapata, De Sciglio; Poli, De Jong, Van Ginkel; Honda, Torres, Bonaventura.
At least no Muntari.
Bonera...
I'd probably take Muntari over him
Although the midfield does look good without him.
Is something wrong with SES? Can't imagine Pippo dropping him if he's fit
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 22 2014, 02:48 PM
I'd probably take Muntari over him
Although the midfield does look good without him.
Is something wrong with SES? Can't imagine Pippo dropping him if he's fit
I think SES will be dropped simply because he was a ghost against Juve.
Posted by: Danny Sep 22 2014, 03:09 PM
SES has been incredibly bright this pre-season early season but yes, he was fucking garbage V Juve. His touch was atrocious and he spent most of his time in our half. Offered zero going forward and gave away the ball repeatedly.
I can't even use the injury excuse as we've been using it for 2 years now.
When he's fit, and on form he's excellent. But when he's like he was on Saturday he's a waste of a jersey.
As for Bonera back in, I think we're going to just have to accept he's Milan's Lee McCulloch.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 03:10 PM
Was the forum offline the past 24 hours or was it just me? 
Posted by: William405 Sep 23 2014, 03:13 PM
Yes it was, I was starting to get worried!
Posted by: m1ke Sep 23 2014, 04:04 PM
Sorry guys - my bad! 
Posted by: m1ke Sep 23 2014, 04:12 PM
I think Bonera is a decent player on his day - but those days are few and far between. He was appalling against Parma, and unless Zap/Rami are carrying niggles from the Juve game, surely they're the better option?
Looking forward to seeing Van Ginkel play, and I really hope Torres proves me wrong 
As I think a clean sheet with this Milan is unlikely, I'm going for a 1-2 win.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 07:14 PM
Nah man, on the contrary, thanks for fixing it.
-
Bonera and Muntari starting. Pippo, Y U do dis???
Posted by: KillerMax Sep 23 2014, 07:34 PM
Good to see you! I thought you abandoned us! We will never reach the holy land without you..
Posted by: KillerMax Sep 23 2014, 07:36 PM
Bonera means I'm already suspicious about how well we will do today...
Posted by: Jack Bauer Sep 23 2014, 07:36 PM
That's one ugly line-up. It's gonna be a very tough season if Pippo will continue to play with the two clowns so often.
Posted by: Jack Bauer Sep 23 2014, 08:00 PM
Nice coverage by Muntari. 0-1
Posted by: Babis911 Sep 23 2014, 08:01 PM
I ve had enough with this defence the last 3 years.....................
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 08:01 PM
Ahahaha, Bonera and Muntari failing miserably at their marking. 1-0. Thank you, Pippo.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 08:05 PM
Sunday league defending.
Posted by: rip Sep 23 2014, 08:06 PM
Do we hav a defence line today?
Posted by: Jack Bauer Sep 23 2014, 08:07 PM
Much worse.
Posted by: Fillipo Simone Sep 23 2014, 08:08 PM
Bonera is a joke. Please remind me whenever I'll feel the urge to defend him again. Complete and utter fail.
Posted by: rip Sep 23 2014, 08:08 PM
they are playing so well. n we get pressed every time we are in possession
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 08:10 PM
It's what happens when you have such a flat midfield. Only Van Ginkel can offer some quality, but he's too green. De Jong and Muntari are simply there to win balls, and Muntari fails miserable at his job. No wonder we're such a mess. Pippo gets nothing. Stability my @ss!
Posted by: KillerMax Sep 23 2014, 08:11 PM
f@ck you Bonera and f@ck you Inzaghi. Yeah you Inzaghi. You are acting like a total jack@ss!
Posted by: rip Sep 23 2014, 08:12 PM
true, Muntari.. wat spell does he have on all the coaches to make them play him
Posted by: Fillipo Simone Sep 23 2014, 08:13 PM
Why the hell is Zapata going up forward? Leaving the slow Bonera even more vulnerable. Good God, what a pairing 
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 08:13 PM
He lets them ride on his Lamborghini.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 08:15 PM
We make Juve look like Barça, and Empoli look like Juve.
Posted by: rip Sep 23 2014, 08:16 PM
Van ginkel injured.. great
Posted by: rip Sep 23 2014, 08:17 PM
so close. almost the third goal for them
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 08:17 PM
Should have been 3-0...
Posted by: Jack Bauer Sep 23 2014, 08:24 PM
It's Sassuolo all over again. Pippo has only himself to blame.
Posted by: rip Sep 23 2014, 08:28 PM
Holy ****. torres scores
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 08:29 PM
Torres!!!
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 08:29 PM
3 assists in 4 games for Abate.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 08:33 PM
Muntari nearly being sent off.
Posted by: rip Sep 23 2014, 08:34 PM
Bonera handled the ball ... that could have been given as a penalty
Posted by: Fillipo Simone Sep 23 2014, 08:35 PM
Zapata and Bonera are like a comic act repeating one gag after another. Just plainly terrible!!
Muntari has to go off, one way or the other.
And finally...what's going on with this team? Even newlings like van Ginkel acting like they're in a slumber party.
Posted by: amancik Sep 23 2014, 08:35 PM
Muntari and Bonera unsurprisingly very poor in the first half. The change of formation right after Van Ginkel's injury was effective.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 08:39 PM
It's what I've been advocating all this time. With a more offensive mid we were more dangerous upfront, midfield didn't seem completely detached from attack and Empoli inadvertently became more cautious enabling us to press them more in their own half.
Posted by: amancik Sep 23 2014, 08:41 PM
Agree. I think 4-2-3-1 is the way to go considering how lousy our midfield is. At least the double pivot can focus on helping our abysmal defence whereas the front four can focus on attacking.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 08:45 PM
Yes, I agree. Honda in the hole, SES and Menez on the wings, De Jong and Poli in the double pivot. It'd be the most appropriate solution.
Posted by: amancik Sep 23 2014, 08:51 PM
That's what I would do too. But so far I've not seen Menez on the right and Honda in the middle. I hope Inzaghi knows that 4-3-3 leaves us terribly exposed in the middle. We need to get the ball to our offensive players but if we can't even build from the back through our midfielders, then that's why partly why SES (in the previous game) and Torres (before the formation change) were ghosts in the game.
Posted by: amancik Sep 23 2014, 08:54 PM
Muntari Out, Poli In. Let's see how this goes.
Posted by: KillerMax Sep 23 2014, 09:03 PM
I really want either a slow mo gif or a still of the exact right moment when Bonera handled the ball in the penalty area. He looks hilarious doing it.. 
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 09:05 PM
I haven't seen such bad defending even under Allegri...
Posted by: Jack Bauer Sep 23 2014, 09:05 PM
HONDA!!!!!!!
Posted by: rip Sep 23 2014, 09:05 PM
wonderful goal by honda
he really should play through the middle.
Posted by: amancik Sep 23 2014, 09:07 PM
Get in!...Come on one more!
Posted by: KillerMax Sep 23 2014, 09:07 PM
Was that Abate with the assist?
Posted by: KillerMax Sep 23 2014, 09:08 PM
I saw things under Allegri that my eyes will never unsee!
Posted by: Jack Bauer Sep 23 2014, 09:09 PM
Yep.
Posted by: Jack Bauer Sep 23 2014, 09:10 PM
SOOOOOOOOOOO UNLUCKY!!!
Posted by: KillerMax Sep 23 2014, 09:10 PM
That's 4 in 4 now then. Nice!
Posted by: rip Sep 23 2014, 09:10 PM
Menez.. so close, brilliant dribbling by torres
Posted by: KillerMax Sep 23 2014, 09:11 PM
Torres has been doing well.
Posted by: Jack Bauer Sep 23 2014, 09:12 PM
Yeah, he's great. Almost with another at the moment.
Posted by: KillerMax Sep 23 2014, 09:12 PM
But he was selfish with that shot!
Edit: Torres I mean.
Posted by: Jack Bauer Sep 23 2014, 09:36 PM
Seems like we don't have it in us to score another.
Posted by: KillerMax Sep 23 2014, 09:39 PM
Yep. If Inzaghi had not played Bonera, now we wouldn't be in this desperate situation.
Posted by: rip Sep 23 2014, 09:42 PM
FT 2-2. miserable match
Posted by: Jack Bauer Sep 23 2014, 09:43 PM
And Muntari. In some of the predicted line ups we were without both of them and I really wanted to see that but Pippo seems to want to learn the hard way, jut like Allegri. Hope for him that he's a better student.
Posted by: KillerMax Sep 23 2014, 09:47 PM
I don't have any 'hopes' for him. I get that if he doesn't play those 2, someone else might still pull off stupid mistakes, but when you have two consistent culprits and you keep fielding them, then the problems is less the players and more the manger. Muntari and Bonera keep costing us. Bonera keeps upping the ante and yet Inzaghi just completely ignores this fact. It's very hard for me to be sympathetic toward him right now...
Posted by: amancik Sep 23 2014, 09:48 PM
Completely different second half. Bonera and Muntari should never play again. Abate MOTM for Milan.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 09:50 PM
Missed the last 10 minutes cos of crappy connection.
I think if anything this game was the perfect learning lesson for Pippo. Never play Bonera, never play Muntari, and never play such a flat midfield again. It was clear as crystal how our game and approach changed when Bonaventura came in. We need to keep this disposition in future games, and play two capable CBs in defense.
Now, the only question is: will Pippo learn from his mistakes? I'm curious to see...
Posted by: amancik Sep 23 2014, 09:56 PM
I think if anything this game was the perfect learning lesson for Pippo. Never play Bonera, never play Muntari, and never play such a flat midfield again. It was clear as crystal how our game and approach changed when Bonaventura came in. We need to keep this disposition in future games, and play two capable CBs in defense.
Now, the only question is: will Pippo learn from his mistakes? I'm curious to see...
We have to now that Van Ginkel and Saponara are injured. If we play with flat midfield we won't have any subs left. Van Ginkel's injury was kinda a blessing in disguise for this game. I couldn't see us coming back from 2 - 0 if Inzaghi hadn't made that change.
Posted by: Jack Bauer Sep 23 2014, 09:58 PM
I agree but I'm still giving him time because he's a rookie and we are after just 4 games. But of course, he must get his **** together and he won't get immunity forever.
Posted by: Fillipo Simone Sep 23 2014, 10:01 PM
New poll http://www.milanfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8444&st=0
Posted by: Fillipo Simone Sep 23 2014, 10:05 PM
One thing:
We must give Pippo a proper chance. What made created the term "Allegriesque" or simply "Allegri" is the fact that he didn't learn from his mistakes. And I'm not only speaking from one defeat to another, or from one week to another. Allegri had unbelievable credit and still managed somehow to touch ground zero.
Inzaghi still has time and a lot to learn. We need to be patient and understand that he's a rookie. Sure, our Allegri memories are fresh, but I still think Inzaghi has it in him to be better and adapt much faster.
The next few weeks will tell us the first signs of progress or status quo. Bonera is the first real test.
Posted by: han2503 Sep 23 2014, 10:08 PM
I think if anything this game was the perfect learning lesson for Pippo. Never play Bonera, never play Muntari, and never play such a flat midfield again. It was clear as crystal how our game and approach changed when Bonaventura came in. We need to keep this disposition in future games, and play two capable CBs in defense.
Now, the only question is: will Pippo learn from his mistakes? I'm curious to see...
This is what I said before the match. The inclusion of Bonera and Muntari for me was appalling. I'm not going to get on Pippo's back just yet, but I really cannot accept the fact that these 2 were allowed onto the pitch to be able to even make the mistakes they made. Because they should have NEVER been in there in the first place after the performances they put in during the last 3 games. Absolutely cannot accept or comprehend Pippo's decision to include them once again into the line-up especially when he has much more competent options on the bench.
That being said I don't want to appear to be completely "obsessed" with those 2. Some other guys who deserve a good talking to for me are Zapata and DS. DS just hasn't been on his game, he needs to wake up and fast. Zapata on the other hand was just as bad as Bonera imo. I personally don't really rate him as highly as some on here do. Some of his positioning and decision making were atrocious. Him and Bonera are the dynamic duo of hilarity as a CB partnership, both are just clueless and should never be used with each other again.
As for the rest, were it not for 4 ridiculous mistakes, we would have won this. Thankfully not all those mistakes were punished.
I like how we played when we switched to a 4-2-3-1, Honda through the centre and Poli in the double pivot worked very well. Bonaventura is really impressive as well.
Special mention for Torres as well who really impressed me and deserved another for all his hard work
Also, I'm having some major issues with milanfan atm. I'm having to post through a proxy because I just cannot access the website through my home network. I just cannot figure out WTF is going on. I've tried every single browser, I've flushed the DNS cache, I deleted the browser cookies, I try to ping from my router diagnostics it's a success but when I do it from command prompt it tells me that the location cannot be reached, I checked my firewall, everything. I'm seriously stumped atm, and watched the game while doing all of this in the background.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 10:14 PM
The forum was done for about 24 hours, but Mike fixed it. Not sure what's causing the problem. Maybe ask Mike?
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 10:19 PM
http://lineupbuilder.com/?sk=4w71
Nuff said! By far our best possible formation/line-up. Yes, even Mexes. I'm seriously tired of Bonera and Zapata, and Alex doesn't convince me enough.
Someone mass-print this and stick it all over Milanello please. 
Posted by: han2503 Sep 23 2014, 10:24 PM
Yeah, I know, but for some strange reason now that it's up again, I can't access it without a proxy (which is annoying). Now I've made some headway and changed my DNS to the google DNS and it's working through chrome.
However, when I switch it back to an automatic DNS, boom, "This web page cannot be displayed".
Just very strange. I've never had any of these issues before, and I also can't access it through my phone when I'me using my home wi-fi, I have to switch to the 3g connection to be able to access the website. Seriously stumped. And since no one is having this issue, I'm going to assume there's nothing wrong with the site, but something on my end.
Now I'm going to try to connect to my neighbour's wi-fi (they have a different service provider) see if I can access it when I'm on their network
Posted by: Danny Sep 23 2014, 10:26 PM
Love how Alex doesn't convince you enough when he was outstanding V Lazio and hasn't actually played since!
Tonight was pretty much jekyll and hyde stuff. Some excellent attacking play, with Torres absolutely on fire and a wonderful finish from Honda but Muntari is a bombscare and Bonera is 100% finished.
The Bonera I was impressed by last season is gone and he's Sassuolo Bonera every match now.
If Pippo is going to succeed he needs to put personal allegiances aside and drop the weak links. 2 of Zapata/Rami/Alex - preferably world cup quarter finalist Zapata and Alex, in defence, thank you.
Midfield no more Muntari. Had enough, he's absolutely diabolical now - Poli did more in his cameo than Muntari has all season.
Bona showed his class in attacking midfield which is exactly where I said he should be playing, and MvG was absolutely excellent till his injury.
Honda again wasted on the right. He's showing real signs of class but you can see the frustration of him having to cut back EVERY time!
There IS a good team here, a very good team. But if Pippo keeps on making the same mistakes as Seedorf and Allegri then it becomes clear he's not picking the team. And if he is he needs to put any friendships to the side and do what's best for the club.
Bonera & Muntari cannot start again. Ever.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 10:33 PM
Some of the comments on FB for Bonera are priceless.
- Bonera is poorer than the oxygen on Jupiter.
- Bonera makes me miss Roque Junior.
- We won so much with him on the bench, why change position?
- A gardener, a bag-handler, a waterman, a pole, a colander... Anything but a football player!
- Lock Bonera and Muntari in the locker room!
- The color of sh*t is Bonera.
- Bonera is more illegal than Gervinho without hair band.
- In Empoli's second goal Bonera was marking De Jong.
- More unwatchable than a Vietam-Faroe Islands game.
And many, many more...
Posted by: han2503 Sep 23 2014, 10:36 PM
Tonight was pretty much jekyll and hyde stuff. Some excellent attacking play, with Torres absolutely on fire and a wonderful finish from Honda but Muntari is a bombscare and Bonera is 100% finished.
The Bonera I was impressed by last season is gone and he's Sassuolo Bonera every match now.
If Pippo is going to succeed he needs to put personal allegiances aside and drop the weak links. 2 of Zapata/Rami/Alex - preferably world cup quarter finalist Zapata and Alex, in defence, thank you.
Midfield no more Muntari. Had enough, he's absolutely diabolical now - Poli did more in his cameo than Muntari has all season.
Bona showed his class in attacking midfield which is exactly where I said he should be playing, and MvG was absolutely excellent till his injury.
Honda again wasted on the right. He's showing real signs of class but you can see the frustration of him having to cut back EVERY time!
There IS a good team here, a very good team. But if Pippo keeps on making the same mistakes as Seedorf and Allegri then it becomes clear he's not picking the team. And if he is he needs to put any friendships to the side and do what's best for the club.
Bonera & Muntari cannot start again. Ever.
Agreed on all accounts Danny aside from the CB issue. I think Zapata is at times just as liable as Bonera is, people only like him because he's fast, one of the great misgivings Fifa has introduced to football, if you're fast, you can do anything. Zapata could have been just as culpable as Bonera today only his mistake were not punished while Bonera's were.
Also didn't you love how Bonera turned to his teammates and tried to blame them for both goals after he was caught horribly out of position on both occasions? True captain stuff right there.
The player that's really doing amazing stuff atm is Abate for me, and everyone seems to be looking over this, as if they don't want to admit how wrong they were about him in the first place.
I'm really glad that he's proven me right this season, he's worked his @ss off throughout his career, especially during these last few years and really has emerged as a true great RB. Not only is he defensively solid, which he has been throughout these last 4 season, but he's also now become a full blown threat in attack, not only because of his overlapping runs that widen our play (which he always did) but now he has the end product to back that up 4 assists in 4 is nothing to scoff at.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 23 2014, 10:37 PM
One good match doesn't make a difference. He wasn't very good against Parma.
But you know, I don't even care that much about the CBs. Any two players between Rami, Mexes, Alex and Zapata would be fine as long as Bonera and Muntari don't ever set foot on the pitch again, and we play like we did in the second half.
Posted by: Danny Sep 23 2014, 11:18 PM
But you know, I don't even care that much about the CBs. Any two players between Rami, Mexes, Alex and Zapata would be fine as long as Bonera and Muntari don't ever set foot on the pitch again, and we play like we did in the second half.
He wasn't very good v Parma because a Mr D Bonera was his partner.
Posted by: Danny Sep 23 2014, 11:20 PM
Zapata looked very solid V Lazio. Every time he's been paired with Bonera THAT'S when he's been a nightmare.
The player that's really doing amazing stuff atm is Abate for me, and everyone seems to be looking over this, as if they don't want to admit how wrong they were about him in the first place.
Nah he's not any better than he was, it's just people are finally appreciating him. You know I ALWAYS rated him.
He's a top, top class RB and while he was linked with a move away, I am glad we kept him. I only endorsed the move away because it seemed DS was going to take RB by default and Abate would be benched.
Posted by: Jack Sparrow Sep 24 2014, 07:03 AM
Horrible match.
I have to now place Muntari on the poor list. I also think Poli played much better on the left of midfield than on the right (his usual position). Leads me to believe that perhaps that will make the difference.
Bonera at CB was a poor pick. I like Bonera but even I was aghast at that pick. Unless Rami was injured I don't know what the reason was.
I already voted in the other thread, but for me Flop: Muntari (He was hauled off at half time) and Top: Menez.
It's a huge shame, but when I see the team play, only Menez and Torres remotely look like they have any confidence on the ball. The others treat it like it's made of molten lava and get it away from them as soon as possible without any thought.
---
My final thoughts, this formation is all wrong. The 4-3-3 I feel is a formation for dynamic team with technique and poise on the ball and defensive solidity without it. We don't have it. And after 3 years, I don't see us drilling it into the players.
For me, we have to go with the old-fashioned flat/diamond moving 4-4-2 .
This 4-3-3 simply leaves too much space in midfield, either for attacking or defending, and our players are appearing too static for any sort of progress. So until Montolivo comes back, this is my chosen formation:
Abate---Rami---Alex---DeScig/Armero [Disappointed by MDS's performances as fullback)
----------------NdJ----------------------
-----MVG/Jack-------Poli/Jack----------
---------------Honda--------------------
-------------Menez[FREE ROLE]--------
-------Torres---------------------------
- We need to cover more space, and our midfield especially needs to be more compact.
- I know I've benched SeS, but for me it's a choice of form. Menez is now 5 times the player SeS is anyway.
- Another thing would be for the fullback to hustle up and crowd out the midfield in the defensive possesion phase, while the back three compacts up to be a 3 man backline.
-Rami and Alex are for me the most trustable CB pairing. Rami is quick, while Alex is calm, gives us good aerial strength and Rami will cover for his occasional brainfarts.
Other points:
Not including Mexes, since he seems to be exiled.
Benched Muntari. Can come on when we want to hold on to a lead. Also Bonera is a fullback for me. Can give Abate some rest. We'll just play Armero on the wing for the attack when playing Bonera who is a more solid type.
Posted by: han2503 Sep 24 2014, 10:02 AM
Nah he's not any better than he was, it's just people are finally appreciating him. You know I ALWAYS rated him.
He's a top, top class RB and while he was linked with a move away, I am glad we kept him. I only endorsed the move away because it seemed DS was going to take RB by default and Abate would be benched.
Zapata was okay against Lazio, did the bare minimum while also including one of his priceless passes to the opposition right in front of our area (something he always seems to manage to do). I still think our best CB pairing has to include Mexes no matter who the other pick is, Zapata is a mess next to Bonera because he's just as incapable of actually taking initiative and being the one to lead the line and cover the spaces left by the guy next to him. You blame Mexes for a lot that happened last season, but when Allegri was playing him next to Zapata and Constant, Mexes was doing all he could to cover both their @sses plus doing his own job, I think he's a very underrated player, and most people only have a bone to pick against him because he earns what he does, which isn't his fault as the management are the ones who offered him that contract
Yeah, I know you've always backed him as a player, I was talking in general, and not just on this forum. Everyone underrates Abate and calls him a headless chicken that just runs forward. Which is ridiculous. He's a very defensively sound RB, something that other attacking RBs don't offer, plus he offers a lot going forward, and not just when he's making assists. And yet still people are reluctant to even complement him now.
I have to now place Muntari on the poor list. I also think Poli played much better on the left of midfield than on the right (his usual position). Leads me to believe that perhaps that will make the difference.
Bonera at CB was a poor pick. I like Bonera but even I was aghast at that pick. Unless Rami was injured I don't know what the reason was.
I already voted in the other thread, but for me Flop: Muntari (He was hauled off at half time) and Top: Menez.
It's a huge shame, but when I see the team play, only Menez and Torres remotely look like they have any confidence on the ball. The others treat it like it's made of molten lava and get it away from them as soon as possible without any thought.
---
My final thoughts, this formation is all wrong. The 4-3-3 I feel is a formation for dynamic team with technique and poise on the ball and defensive solidity without it. We don't have it. And after 3 years, I don't see us drilling it into the players.
For me, we have to go with the old-fashioned flat/diamond moving 4-4-2 .
This 4-3-3 simply leaves too much space in midfield, either for attacking or defending, and our players are appearing too static for any sort of progress. So until Montolivo comes back, this is my chosen formation:
Abate---Rami---Alex---DeScig/Armero [Disappointed by MDS's performances as fullback)
----------------NdJ----------------------
-----MVG/Jack-------Poli/Jack----------
---------------Honda--------------------
-------------Menez[FREE ROLE]--------
-------Torres---------------------------
- We need to cover more space, and our midfield especially needs to be more compact.
- I know I've benched SeS, but for me it's a choice of form. Menez is now 5 times the player SeS is anyway.
- Another thing would be for the fullback to hustle up and crowd out the midfield in the defensive possesion phase, while the back three compacts up to be a 3 man backline.
-Rami and Alex are for me the most trustable CB pairing. Rami is quick, while Alex is calm, gives us good aerial strength and Rami will cover for his occasional brainfarts.
Other points:
Not including Mexes, since he seems to be exiled.
Benched Muntari. Can come on when we want to hold on to a lead. Also Bonera is a fullback for me. Can give Abate some rest. We'll just play Armero on the wing for the attack when playing Bonera who is a more solid type.
I love it that you've basically fallen into what me and some others here have been saying for a while now, about Muntari, about Bonera, about how completely inept our midfield is on the ball, which in turn creates issues for us both in attack and defence
I personally think Pippo needs to find away to include all of Honda, SES, Menez and Torres in the line-up
Posted by: Fillipo Simone Sep 24 2014, 10:18 AM
I like Jack's idea of Menez drifting in a free role far more then when he's fixated on the right/left wing.
The biggest issue/question is SES. He seems to me like a Inter-Pirlo. A player undoubtedly talented, capable and still young, but with no ideal position. I'm not sure he's a good winger, in fact, I'm pretty sure he isn't. Then again, he isn't a pure/central striker either. I'd try linking Torres with SES like Pippo and Sheva were linked, but then you have the problem of Menez who wouldn't be compatible for such a formation.
Posted by: kurtsimonw Sep 24 2014, 10:19 AM
Yeah I don't think SES will ever make it out wide.
Posted by: Jack Sparrow Sep 24 2014, 10:38 AM
For me SeS can play behind Torres. I believe SeS and Menez occupy roughly the same styles at times, so it is difficult to play them both. One would require to shackle himself while the other plays so as to remain balanced. But this makes the other player look bad.
This can only be resolved if we get an Isco or a Modric type player who can dink around passes in the final third, bringing both players into play effectively.
@han: I still like Bonera a lot. But that's not to say he isn't without his faults. I would have been far more confident if yesterday he had started next to Alex. He needs a calm head as a partner and not a dynamic player. That just makes his faults glare at times. As for Muntari, yesterday might have been a bad day at office. But his job description is too unclear. I thought he was good in the first game, where he limited himself to play the simple pass and keep things moving. A pure water-carrier role. The problem is the moment our midfield gets strangled and he is out of options, as a player he either gets tensed or over-ambitious and worsens matters.
Even with Poli it doesn't matter. I insist that the 4-3-3 is dead to us. It will not work with the players we have.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 24 2014, 10:57 AM
For me, we have to go with the old-fashioned flat/diamond moving 4-4-2 .
This 4-3-3 simply leaves too much space in midfield, either for attacking or defending, and our players are appearing too static for any sort of progress. So until Montolivo comes back, this is my chosen formation:
Abate---Rami---Alex---DeScig/Armero [Disappointed by MDS's performances as fullback)
----------------NdJ----------------------
-----MVG/Jack-------Poli/Jack----------
---------------Honda--------------------
-------------Menez[FREE ROLE]--------
-------Torres---------------------------
- We need to cover more space, and our midfield especially needs to be more compact.
- I know I've benched SeS, but for me it's a choice of form. Menez is now 5 times the player SeS is anyway.
- Another thing would be for the fullback to hustle up and crowd out the midfield in the defensive possesion phase, while the back three compacts up to be a 3 man backline.
-Rami and Alex are for me the most trustable CB pairing. Rami is quick, while Alex is calm, gives us good aerial strength and Rami will cover for his occasional brainfarts.
Other points:
Not including Mexes, since he seems to be exiled.
Benched Muntari. Can come on when we want to hold on to a lead. Also Bonera is a fullback for me. Can give Abate some rest. We'll just play Armero on the wing for the attack when playing Bonera who is a more solid type.
Not keen on a 3-man midfield. We clearly don't have the personnel for it. You clearly stated in your previous post that 4-3-3 is dead to us, but that's not only because the forwards aren't adaptable, but also because our players are not suited for a 3-man midfield.
Our best options right now would be either an offensive 4-2-3-1 (as I posted last night), or a more pragmatic yet not defensive-minded 3-4-1-2. I'd have Abate and Armero on the wings, De Jong and Poli in the double pivot and Honda behind Torres and Menez, who'd have a more free role as you put it. Kinda like what Napoli used to play under Mazzarri.
No disrespect, but anyone reading this would call you a fool right now. You still like Bonera? Muntari is fine? No, just no. If anything, last night's game proved what me, Han and many others have been saying all this time, i.e. that such a flat midfield would never work and those are two terrible, terrible players.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 24 2014, 11:06 AM
http://vimeo.com/106994171
Note how Bonera gets burned in the first goal as Muntari stands like an idiot doing nothing, and how in the second goal Bonera loses his man and goes marking the same man De Jong was. Amateurish defending.
Also, what formation were we playing in the second half? Was it by chance a 3-1-4-2? Abate and Bonaventura were clearly covering the wings, De Jong was also going back deep to protect the defense, whereas Poli and Honda did the CM. I'm pretty sure I got this right. And Menez was everywhere, a free role as Jack put it. That's the impression I got.
Posted by: Jack Sparrow Sep 24 2014, 11:23 AM
^^
I'm sorry, that site doesn't open for me. I'm at work. So if you could post that lineup in text, I'd be able to take a look.
Mm...so, likewise no disrespect but let me explain my thought process I still believe it is situational.
When Zapata or Abate or De Sciglio jumps out of position and ruins an offside trap leaving Bonera to take on a player one-on-one, which he fails at coz he's too slow - whose fault is it?
When you have zonal defence and a player scores, whose fault is it? The players holding the zones from which the scorer started the run, and continued or the player holding the zone in which the player landed for about a second before scoring.
I generally tend not to single out one player in the defence, especially on setpieces and especially when the team is doing zonal marking. But I'm weird on this forum. I find defending to be extremely f@cking hard. Second only to the deep lying playmaker position.
Muntari again is situational. There are games which the structure will suit him perfectly. There are games where he can't play except in a certain point of time. For e.g. against a high pressuring team (like Empoli in the first 40 minutes), when we have such a static lineup -> NdJ and MvG stayed flat on their positions, De Sciglio was painful in his build up play and Menez was double-marked, Muntari has not one option to make a straight pass. Here his flaw is that instead of hoofing it off to switch playing side or clear lines, he tries an ambitious pass that gives up possession.
So I won't pillory them.
But here's the thing. I will ship out Bonera, Mexes, Zapata, Muntari and Poli if it meant we would get Thiago Silva and Kroos/Modric/Isco/Di Maria.
So please understand I'm not saying that Muntari/Bonera etc are good players. I'm just trying to make do with what we have and utilise them to make best use of their limited talent set.
Posted by: Fillipo Simone Sep 24 2014, 11:34 AM
I never was especially fond of Bonera. The only thing that makes me like him is he sometimes resembles the old Italian defenders, doing his tackling and overall control over the defense.
But the problems outweigh everything else. And his age isn't even an issue; I remember a pretty young Bonera organizing horror shows with unbelievable repercussions. With his lack of speed, his constant injuries which took their toe, his lack of confidence and spatial orientation - I really don't see the point in keeping him or playing him.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 24 2014, 11:36 AM
I'm sorry, that site doesn't open for me. I'm at work. So if you could post that lineup in text, I'd be able to take a look.
Which site? Lineupbuilder? If that's the case:
Abate - Rami - Mexes - MDS
Poli - De Jong
Menez - Honda - SES
Torres
When Zapata or Abate or De Sciglio jumps out of position and ruins an offside trap leaving Bonera to take on a player one-on-one, which he fails at coz he's too slow - whose fault is it?
When you have zonal defence and a player scores, whose fault is it? The players holding the zones from which the scorer started the run, and continued or the player holding the zone in which the player landed for about a second before scoring.
I generally tend not to single out one player in the defence, especially on setpieces and especially when the team is doing zonal marking. But I'm weird on this forum. I find defending to be extremely f@cking hard. Second only to the deep lying playmaker position.
Muntari again is situational. There are games which the structure will suit him perfectly. There are games where he can't play except in a certain point of time. For e.g. against a high pressuring team (like Empoli in the first 40 minutes), when we have such a static lineup -> NdJ and MvG stayed flat on their positions, De Sciglio was painful in his build up play and Menez was double-marked, Muntari has not one option to make a straight pass. Here his flaw is that instead of hoofing it off to switch playing side or clear lines, he tries an ambitious pass that gives up possession.
So I won't pillory them.
But here's the thing. I will ship out Bonera, Mexes, Zapata, Muntari and Poli if it meant we would get Thiago Silva and Kroos/Modric/Isco/Di Maria.
So please understand I'm not saying that Muntari/Bonera etc are good players. I'm just trying to make do with what we have and utilise them to make best use of their limited talent set.
Those are very specific situations you're describing there. No doubt our whole defensive system is in shambles right now, but that doesn't mean Pippo actually has to play Bonera now does it? It's not like if we were sounder defensively Bonera would shine or something. He's simply shite. He was atrocious against Parma, where he got sent off, and he was at fault at both goals last night. Why insist with him?
And Muntari, man, this argument will never cease, will it? To put it in plain, simple words: the guy is very, very limited technically, he's not very smart in his positioning, and he's super, duper lazy. And these elements become obvious in each and every single match he plays. Sure, against a non-existent Lazio any player would look good, but not every game is a walk in the park. He can't handle pressure, he can't handle a dynamic game and him playing affects our game substantially. It's like we're playing with 10 men whereas the opponent is playing with 12.
He has to be dropped, along with Bonera. End of.
Posted by: Danny Sep 24 2014, 11:48 AM
No, I don't have any bone to pick with Mexes, I just don't think he's any good now. His form disintegrated last season. It started out as average then became downright poor. He did used to be pretty good, particularly alongside Zaps the season prior in the CL.
But f*ck sake is every conversation we have going to be an argument over Mexes?
EDIT: seems the swear filter is back on...
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 24 2014, 12:06 PM
It's always been on. It just can't make a distinction between f*ck and fucking.
Posted by: Jack Sparrow Sep 24 2014, 12:07 PM
Haha. So the argument with Mexes came about I think because, we have played 4 games with 4 different CB combinations. Pippo made it clear that he would shift that round till he reached the best combination. So he's still experimenting. Only Abate seems to have his place set.
I think the only CB combination left to play is Alex-Rami which I curiously believe will be our best bet for a pairing not involving Mexes.
Since all our CB pairings have been poor, we're looking to Mexes. If he fails, we shall then complain about how we wasted money this transfer window instead of strengthening genuine areas of concern like midfield and defence.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 24 2014, 12:10 PM
Yeah, I also think Rami-Alex could be our best pairing not considering Mexes. Zapata-Alex wouldn't be that bad either, though I'm not very keen on it.
Posted by: Jack Sparrow Sep 24 2014, 12:37 PM
I dislike Zapata. I think of him as someone who requires too much covering from his partner. His pace and strength are his only assets. For me he is rotation material. Would I be rude in calling him a pawn to be used in the transfer market?
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 24 2014, 02:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzJsR-fCWR0
Posted by: Jack Sparrow Sep 24 2014, 02:48 PM
I agree he is out of form. But I still would bench him. Let him get back to form in training.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 24 2014, 02:50 PM
De Sciglio, you mean? Yeah, he might need a bench or two. Play Armero.
Posted by: han2503 Sep 24 2014, 03:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GETJh-QoF4s
I thought it felt like I was talking in this vid. Loved his Bonera and Muntari analysis
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 24 2014, 03:22 PM
I thought it felt like I was talking in this vid. Loved his Bonera and Muntari analysis
Yep, great commentary. Bonera and Muntari, F*CK OFF! I think I'm gonna make this my new sig.
Posted by: Jack Sparrow Sep 24 2014, 03:28 PM
Aside from all the formation talk, I just want to say I really believe Jack Bonaventura deserves a start. We have simply seemed far more enterprising and less cowardly in our play once he is on.
I would even play a flat 4-4-2 to accomodate him.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 24 2014, 03:39 PM
I see him more as a jack-of-all-trades type of player, who can fill the void whenever we have an injury or suspension in midfield or attack.
Posted by: Danny Sep 24 2014, 08:26 PM
That's because you're too obsessed with Honda to accept Bona's actually a better player
Nah being serious he's had two matches, and last night played deeper - guess what, like I said, in the attacking midfield zone he is a serious player.
He has to start in the 3 in the middle IMO. And has to play every match. I'm just gutted MvG is injured.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 24 2014, 08:35 PM
... If Pippo actually decides to keep playing a 3-man midfield. I have my reservations after last night.
Posted by: han2503 Sep 24 2014, 09:59 PM
I honestly think it's a toss up atm, I do think he'll use a 4-3-3 vs Cesena again, it's just a matter of whether it works or not, if it doesn't I can see him going for a 4-2-3-1.
And I agree with you Danny Bonaventura looked pretty great yesterday when he was sort of occupying the LAM position rather than a full winger, he was dropping deep, exchanging positions with Poli, even Poli looked so much better than he has in the flat 3-man midfield.
The problem is we don't have anywhere to fit all these guys right now.
Honda imo, is un-droppable atm, when he worked through the centre yesterday he looked like the real deal, and not just someone on the periphery looking in, not to mention he's in great scoring form. Same can be said of Menez and I think Torres will become a crucial cog in our attack, his pace and movement through the channels is just brilliant and we simply haven't had that type of movement from a striker since Sheva.
We could go for something crazy like going 3 at the back with De Jong in the centre of the defence playing the sort of playmaker in the defence like what Bonucci does at Juve
Abate--Poli--Bonaventura--DS
Honda--Menez
Torres
But again, you'd have to leave out SES.
Too bad about Van Ginkel, he looked the real deal in his few minutes on the pitch, he always looked to move the ball forward, he actually looked like he's capable of an actual thought process when on the ball unlike Muntari. Hope he's not out for too long as I think he'd be brilliant in a double pivot. However I read he damaged a ligament in his ankle so that could easily be a few months.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 24 2014, 10:21 PM
Leaving SES is a necessity right now. All of Menez, Honda and Torres are in very good shape. The only way to play SES would be to go with 4-2-3-1.
Posted by: han2503 Sep 24 2014, 10:49 PM
Like I said in the other thread though, I am just not a fan of a 3-man back line and think it would be a mistake to use it, especially when our CBs and defence as a team in general has been so shambolic in a system they're familiar with.
4-2-3-1 imo, is the best way to go for us, it would allow us to incorporate our best assets as well as hopefully defending better as a team with De Jong and Poli sitting deep when necessary
SES had a great pre-season and started out well against Lazio, another niggling injury ruined his momentum
Against Juve not only was it clear that he was not fit/sharp enough as evidenced by the cramps in the second half but he was also totally isolated with a complete inept midfield which was simply incapable of getting the ball to either him or Honda
Posted by: Jack Sparrow Sep 25 2014, 06:56 AM
I think the main point that has come out from the above talks is that flat 3 man midfield cannot work. I completely agree with that. If we must play the 3 man midfield, we shall have to do something like this>
--Abate---Rami---Alex---Armero--
-------------De Jong--------------
-----Jack/MvG-------Poli/Jack------
------Honda-------Menez(Free)-----
-------------Torres------------------
So basically, I hate to admit it, but now I've become Pep Guardiola coz this is so his style and his formation. I could even draw lines to indicate what each player should do. Ugh!
Posted by: Danny Sep 25 2014, 07:05 AM
The Pep style WAS a flat 3. The difference was each of them could cover each other but primarily you had the DM, CM, then AM.
In our case DM De Jong, CM Van Ginkel, AM Bonaventura.
Posted by: kurtsimonw Sep 25 2014, 07:14 AM
Except an individual game can't prove anything. If they could, SES proved to be a terrible, terrible player for probably 23 of his last 25 performances.
Posted by: Jack Sparrow Sep 25 2014, 07:24 AM
With Barca, you could see Iniesta, Xavi and Busquets were forming a triangle. It was a staggered midfield, with one slightly higher than the other with Busquets deepest. Iniesta was the furthest forward, almost a skewed 4-2-4.
With Bayern, it's more like a 4-1-4-1 that morphs into a 4-2-3-1 when defending. , but I call it a 4-3-3 triangle coz Schweini stays back while Alacantara and Goetze/Ribery advance, while not being as advanced as Robben or Muller.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 25 2014, 07:53 AM
--Abate---Rami---Alex---Armero--
-------------De Jong--------------
-----Jack/MvG-------Poli/Jack------
------Honda-------Menez(Free)-----
-------------Torres------------------
So basically, I hate to admit it, but now I've become Pep Guardiola coz this is so his style and his formation. I could even draw lines to indicate what each player should do. Ugh!
That looks good, I agree with your choices, only that with MvG out injurd I'd have Poli on the right and Bonaventura on the left. And I wiuldn't use Honda on the wing like Pippo does. Give him a more central position, like Seedorf's position in the post-Sheva Christmas tree.
Just one game? 4 goals against Parma, terrible performance against Juve and now this. Anyone who gets one thing or teo about football could have seen that NdJ-Poli-Muntari would never work.
And are you perhaps implying that Bonera and Muntari are not terrible?
Posted by: Jack Sparrow Sep 25 2014, 09:35 AM
I thought of Poli on the right too. But he was almost reborn when he played on the left against Empli. I'm thinking perhaps left side is his strong side.
Maybe on the right, he isn't as effective. We're fortunate that playing on the right of centre happens to be Montolivo's favourite position.
Posted by: X-Offender Sep 25 2014, 01:40 PM
Does it really make that much of a difference whether you play on the right or left of CM? Maybe he looked better cos the whole team was better in the second half, know what I'm sayin'? And besides, LCM is Bonaventura's position if Pippo will play him there.
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