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> English teams are robbing game of skill, says Valdano

 
whoarethepatriot...
post May 8 2007, 05:57 PM
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This is what Jorge Valdano a world cup winner and more importantly intellect has to say

i will make important points bold

QUOTE
The former Real Madrid coach and World Cup winner Jorge Valdano has attacked Rafael Benítez and Jose Mourinho, insisting that they are ushering in a bleak future for football and likening the Champions League semi-final between Liverpool and Chelsea to "a **** hanging from a stick".

The Argentinian, who scored in the 1986 World Cup final and has a respected reputation as a football intellectual, claimed that Mourinho and Benítez mistrust talent because of their own failure to make it as players and said their approach is bad news for the game.


Writing in Spain's best-selling newspaper, Marca, Valdano insisted: "Football is made up of subjective feeling, of suggestion - and, in that, Anfield is unbeatable. Put a **** hanging from a stick in the middle of this passionate, crazy stadium and there are people who will tell you it's a work of art. It's not: it's a **** hanging from a stick.

"Chelsea and Liverpool are the clearest, most exaggerated example of the way football is going: very intense, very collective, very tactical, very physical, and very direct," he added. "But, a short pass? Noooo. A feint? Noooo. A change of pace? Noooo. A one-two? A nutmeg? A backheel? Don't be ridiculous. None of that. The extreme control and seriousness with which both teams played the semi-final neutralised any creative licence, any moments of exquisite skill.

"If Didier Drogba was the best player in the first match it was purely because he was the one who ran the fastest, jumped the highest and crashed into people the hardest. Such extreme intensity wipes away talent, even leaving a player of Joe Cole's class disoriented. If football is going the way Chelsea and Liverpool are taking it, we had better be ready to wave goodbye to any expression of the cleverness and talent we have enjoyed for a century."

Valdano explained why Benítez and Mourinho were to blame for the demise of flair and creativity. "The lives of Mourinho and Benítez have crossed in a world that is ever more scrutinised and exposed by the media, which is why they look at each other with such distrust," he wrote, "but they have two things in common: a previously denied, hitherto unsatisfied hunger for glory, and a desire to have everything under control.

"Both of those things stem from one key factor: neither Mourinho nor Benítez made it as a player. That has made them channel all their vanity into coaching. Those who did not have the talent to make it as players do not believe in the talent of players, they do not believe in the ability to improvise in order to win football matches. In short, Benítez and Mourinho are exactly the kind of coaches that Benítez and Mourinho would have needed to have made it as players."


Taken from the guardian Link

I wouldnt necesarily say ENG football is ruining game but i agree with the statements about Lpool and Chelsea. He also raises a point as to why this may be happening which is a fairly interesting point

What do you guys think?

This post has been edited by whoarethepatriots: May 8 2007, 05:57 PM
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Portman
post May 8 2007, 06:19 PM
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Who cares? I mean...

-Liverpool in 3 years won a CL, a FA Cup and CL finalist this year.
-Chelsea won 2 leagues and some cups.

Italy won the World Cup playing good football? Please. It's just... football.

Benitez e Mourinho are tactics-titans, genious of the modern football. They'll continue to win titles in their philosophy and style.
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whoarethepatriot...
post May 8 2007, 06:47 PM
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i would rather watch pretty arsenal, than boring liverpool

you are not supoosed to fall asleep watching a football match, you are supposed to be entertained, thats one reason why we are so appealing to watch, and i believe thats the reason why some support us
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Rossoneri7
post May 8 2007, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (whoarethepatriots @ May 8 2007, 08:47 PM)
i would rather watch pretty arsenal, than boring liverpool

you are not supoosed to fall asleep watching a football match, you are supposed to be entertained, thats one reason why we are so appealing to watch, and i believe thats the reason why some support us
*


Very true .. Milan's philosophy of play is that of entertainment. We rarely concede, but we give the audience a good show.

Chelsea play a very closed game; most of their matches are 1-0 or at best 3-1 ... Not as spectacular as Milan or Barca or Madrid ... Liverpool play a very rigid game. Arsenal, well, Wenger is to be given credit for how a team in the EPL plays as brilliantly as Arsenal.

But in the end, porty has apoint too, as long as Chelsea and Liverfool are winning, that is enough to silence the critics.

Though, I do believe that the type of football they play (liver and Chelsea) is a very boring one, to the extent that I dont even bother to finish one whole game. Even Liverfool against barca wasn't as spectacular as it should have been, maybe cuz I was waiting for R10 to do something, but that is my opinion.

And please, never compare us to the blues or the reds ... Milan is class.
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dst
post May 9 2007, 12:03 AM
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QUOTE (Porty @ May 8 2007, 08:19 PM)
Who cares? I mean...

-Liverpool in 3 years won a CL, a FA Cup and CL finalist this year.
-Chelsea won 2 leagues and some cups.

Italy won the World Cup playing good football? Please. It's just... football.

Benitez e Mourinho are tactics-titans, genious of the modern football. They'll continue to win titles in their philosophy and style.
*

Wow... my view is entirely different.

First of all, football is not just football, it's a religion and it's a philosophy.

Secondly, winning is not everything and losing is not always the same. That said, I'd rather Milan lost a final the way we did in '05 than win it the way Liverpool did that year... I look back at and download historical Milan games cause I can see my team win in style. What will Giuve fans look at when they do the same, once the agony is gone and the result is known there's nothing to watch about Giuve...

Italy played good football in the World Cup IMO... this was the best WC I've ever seen in terms of quality and this is the biggest football competition in the world, it can't be compared to the club ones that take place every season...

That said, I picked Milan for their finesse, I could have picked Giuve if I wanted titles.
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bigmacmtl
post May 9 2007, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE (dst @ May 8 2007, 06:03 PM)
Wow... my view is entirely different.

First of all, football is not just football, it's a religion and it's a philosophy.

Secondly, winning is not everything and losing is not always the same. That said, I'd rather Milan lost a final the way we did in '05 than win it the way Liverpool did that year... I look back at and download historical Milan games cause I can see my team win in style. What will Giuve fans look at when they do the same, once the agony is gone and the result is known there's nothing to watch about Giuve...

Italy played good football in the World Cup IMO... this was the best WC I've ever seen in terms of quality and this is the biggest football competition in the world, it can't be compared to the club ones that take place every season...

That said, I picked Milan for their finesse, I could have picked Giuve if I wanted titles.
*

i've always said juve fans are generally very sad insecure people, because they need reassurance that their team will a tittle every 2-3 years (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
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Milan Are Brilli...
post May 9 2007, 11:41 AM
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The English league is pathetic, and that's my response to anyone who says why do you support an Italian team being English!

For years and years people here say the Italian league is boring yes there are a few defensive clubs in the league but I'm 120% sure there are more with that mentality in England.

The matches here are not like they used to be a decade or so ago when they were actually entertaining, the Newcastle V Liverpool games was what it was all about then. I'm sure the foreign influx of managers and players have something to do with this so they only have themselves to blame.

Teams used to want to win against the big clubs especially, that would be the highlight of their season, nowadays any club out of the big 4 parks their side in their own half for the whole match (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

It definitely is a more European suited league now that's the only positive, with clubs getting far more success in both the UEFA Cup and Champions League.

Any English person can wave goodbye to the international team though, perhaps the next European Championships and World Cup is the last time we will have any chance of winning it. This is mainly due to people like Arsene Whinger and Jose Moaninho but who are they to care?
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kurtsimonw
post May 11 2007, 07:59 PM
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Don't get carried away with the English national team.

We probably won't win the World Cup for a while, but it's not like we got knocked out to awful teams, and even when we do get knocked out it's usuall in a shoot-out or a one goal loss to a top side.

We just need goalscorers, Rooney has proved time and time again that he doesn't have what it takes to make it internationally. Crouch has a very good record and was unlucky he hasn't really had a striking partner, hopefully with Owen back that will change.

We're still one of the top teams in the world, and will be for a long, long time.
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Portman
post May 11 2007, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (dst @ May 9 2007, 12:03 AM)
Wow... my view is entirely different.

First of all, football is not just football, it's a religion and it's a philosophy.

Secondly, winning is not everything and losing is not always the same. That said, I'd rather Milan lost a final the way we did in '05 than win it the way Liverpool did that year... I look back at and download historical Milan games cause I can see my team win in style. What will Giuve fans look at when they do the same, once the agony is gone and the result is known there's nothing to watch about Giuve...

Italy played good football in the World Cup IMO... this was the best WC I've ever seen in terms of quality and this is the biggest football competition in the world, it can't be compared to the club ones that take place every season...

That said, I picked Milan for their finesse, I could have picked Giuve if I wanted titles.
*

It's good share different opinions. That's why this is a forum.

But yes... like English (or Scouse? (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ) Legend Bill Shankly once said "If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing."

Winning is everything IMO. (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

This post has been edited by Porty: May 11 2007, 08:17 PM
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kurtsimonw
post May 11 2007, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (Porty @ May 11 2007, 07:16 PM)
It's good share different opinions. That's why this is a forum.

But yes... like English (or Scouse?  (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ) Legend Bill Shankly once said "If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing."

Winning is everything IMO.  (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
*


Winning is everything, but there's no shame in finishing second.

If winning wasn't everything I'd already be celebrating that we are at least the second best team in Europe.. But what is that to celebrate?
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dst
post May 11 2007, 08:44 PM
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Here's a simple reason why I don't think winning is everything:

We lost to Liverfool in the '05 CL Final, a final that hit everybody really hard, both players and fans. Even Gattuso wanted to leave Milan, Carlo was considered as good as fired but even in that state we picked up more points in the Scudetto the season after that and we were in the semis again, knocked out only because of a disallowed goal!

Where was Liverfool?? Oh yeah, they got hammered twice by Benfica!! What would Bill Shankly have to say about that? Liverfool went from being first to being nothing?? (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Please, give me a break!

Nobody can always be first so there are other things that count...

So, I'd rather lose that final again and still be there rather than win it luckily!


... (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

This post has been edited by dst: May 11 2007, 08:46 PM
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kurtsimonw
post May 11 2007, 08:47 PM
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QUOTE (dst @ May 11 2007, 07:44 PM)
Here's a simple reason why I don't think winning is everything:

We lost to Liverfool in the '05 CL Final, a final that hit everybody really hard, both fans and players. Even Gattuso wanted to leave Milan, Carlo was as good as fired but even in that state we picked up more points in the Scudetto the next season and we were in the semis again and were only knocked out because of a disallowed goal!

Where was Liverfool?? Oh yeah I almost forgot, they got hammered twice by Benfica!! What would Bill Shankly say for that? Liverfool went from being first to being nothing??  (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Please, give me a break!

Nobody can always be first so there must be other things that count...

So, I'd rather lose that final again and still be there rather than win it luckily!
... (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)
*


I see your point.

But I think in a Cup competition winning has to be everything. Wherever else you finish, you don't get remembered, you don't get anything for doing it.

In the league it's different, you can be rewarded in other ways when you don't finish first. Such as CL or UEFA Cup qualification.
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dst
post May 11 2007, 08:57 PM
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Yeah apart from the winners most of the fans will probably not remember anything but... I don't care!

Milan has been on the top of the European stage for 5 consecutive seasons and we've reached another final in our worst season out of those 5 ones... It means nothing to the occasional fan but even if we lose this final, being there after such a season means everything to me!!

We lost a final we led by 3 and we get bashed but now... when we were down by 8, with dead feet and zero mentality everybody thinks what we achieved is nothing! Well that's NOT the case, I don't give a f@ck for the Wiki user of the future, history is NOT just dates and numbers!!

This post has been edited by dst: May 11 2007, 08:58 PM
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Milan Are Brilli...
post May 12 2007, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ May 11 2007, 06:59 PM)
Don't get carried away with the English national team.

We probably won't win the World Cup for a while, but it's not like we got knocked out to awful teams, and even when we do get knocked out it's usuall in a shoot-out or a one goal loss to a top side.

We just need goalscorers, Rooney has proved time and time again that he doesn't have what it takes to make it internationally. Crouch has a very good record and was unlucky he hasn't really had a striking partner, hopefully with Owen back that will change.

We're still one of the top teams in the world, and will be for a long, long time.
*

Have you seen us qualifying for the European Championships, at this rate we don't even deserve to be within the 16 teams that do qualify (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

A goal loss to a top side, if we were "one of the top teams in the world" then we should beat some of them instead we don't.

The national team have been unlucky in recent tournaments, but just like Portugal's golden generation not winning anything neither are we going to (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

It's due to the Premier League every team would rather bring in a foreigner than give an English youngster a chance, it's sad for the national team.
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han2503
post May 13 2007, 07:38 AM
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QUOTE (Kaka Is Brilliant @ May 12 2007, 04:43 PM)
Have you seen us qualifying for the European Championships, at this rate we don't even deserve to be within the 16 teams that do qualify  (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

A goal loss to a top side, if we were "one of the top teams in the world" then we should beat some of them instead we don't.

The national team have been unlucky in recent tournaments, but just like Portugal's golden generation not winning anything neither are we going to  (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

It's due to the Premier League [b]every team would rather bring in a foreigner than give an English youngster a chance, it's sad for the national team.[/B]
*

I don't think that that is the problem ATM but it will be in the future, no doubt.

But right now I think it has more to do with the incompetent coach you have.

If England want to move forward they need to hire a foreign coach. Lippi might be an option since he said that he doesn't have any offer as of yet. They should have gotten Scolari when they had the chance, not the clueless McLaren (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

This post has been edited by han2503: May 13 2007, 07:39 AM
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