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Protagonist
post Sep 20 2009, 09:40 PM
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Perhaps, this would level the playing field from here on. Restrictions on the extravagant spends; like taking a mid to bottom table team and soaking it with unlimited funds to make it a contender in no less than two years is not what football is all about.

Manchester C is exactly the reason why clubs have raised the issue to UEFA. But I do not think that those clubs that raised the issue to UEFA will benefit from it more than those that do not make it to the top four kurtsimonw, logically those clubs competing for a top four finish would have higher wages to deal with, than say a mid to bottom table team. So it would all be in proportion I guess.

Discrediting UEFA, if I may, does blur the idea further. And makes it look like a controversy is being cooked to benefit the likes of Man U and us.

ps On the issue of club presidents putting their own money into their clubs, isn't that why UEFA came up with this solution in the first place?
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kurtsimonw
post Sep 21 2009, 12:08 AM
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QUOTE (Bluesummers @ Sep 20 2009, 07:44 PM) *
obviously they will audit and keep a close eyes on club. They probably will want a statement proving how much they earn and where the money comes from etc and i'm sure they will rule out such donations that the owners could provide.

It wouldn't matter. Citys owners could change their shirt sponsor to the logo of one of their other business and pay them however much they wanted per year on the shirt sponsor deal. There's nothing wrong with that and you can't stop it, it's no different than any other sponsor, except for the amount of money. To stop it you'd need to stop shirt sponsors.
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Jack Sparrow
post Sep 21 2009, 08:59 AM
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QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Sep 21 2009, 04:38 AM) *
It wouldn't matter. Citys owners could change their shirt sponsor to the logo of one of their other business and pay them however much they wanted per year on the shirt sponsor deal. There's nothing wrong with that and you can't stop it, it's no different than any other sponsor, except for the amount of money. To stop it you'd need to stop shirt sponsors.


If they're using one of their own companies, then those respective companies cannot afford to put in a lot of money. That money has to be shown to have come from the company's account. And the more money they put into Man City, they have to either show a corresponding return in business terms or have a higher bottom line profit.

On that other hand, the owner doesn't need to account to anyone. Like Abramovich, when he ploughed in 600 MM.
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kurtsimonw
post Sep 21 2009, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (Jack Sparrow @ Sep 21 2009, 08:59 AM) *
If they're using one of their own companies, then those respective companies cannot afford to put in a lot of money. That money has to be shown to have come from the company's account. And the more money they put into Man City, they have to either show a corresponding return in business terms or have a higher bottom line profit.

On that other hand, the owner doesn't need to account to anyone. Like Abramovich, when he ploughed in 600 MM.

I agree with your first comment, but surely for Man Citys owners to have such huge amounts of money, one of their companies would have to be earning huge amounts of money? Then they'd just use this to sponsor the Man City shirt instead of just using it as direct transfer funds.
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Jack Sparrow
post Sep 21 2009, 08:41 PM
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Well when you rule a country, the state's wealth is your wealth. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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kurtsimonw
post Sep 21 2009, 09:12 PM
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Oh, I just presumed they were in oil or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)
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Jack Sparrow
post Sep 22 2009, 04:09 AM
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Nope. They're the ruling family of Abu Dhabi. Sheikh in their titles remember? That's the equivalent of saying 'His Highness'.
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il_diavolo_mtl
post Sep 22 2009, 04:22 AM
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QUOTE (Jack Sparrow @ Sep 21 2009, 11:09 PM) *
Nope. They're the ruling family of Abu Dhabi. Sheikh in their titles remember? That's the equivalent of saying 'His Highness'.

if only italy's leader was as supportive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
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Tennie
post Sep 23 2009, 01:08 PM
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So, Swiss referee Massimo Bussaca is generally thought of as one of the better refs in Europe. But he's got a naughty streak.

First, over the weekend, he gave a one-fingered salute to fans during a Swiss league game. link

And then secondly, while refereeing a game in Qatar, he relieved himself on the pitch while the players were positioning themselves for a corner. link

Fishdoll tsk tsk, such bad manners!
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il_diavolo_mtl
post Sep 23 2009, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE (Tennie @ Sep 23 2009, 08:08 AM) *
So, Swiss referee Massimo Bussaca is generally thought of as one of the better refs in Europe. But he's got a naughty streak.

First, over the weekend, he gave a one-fingered salute to fans during a Swiss league game. link

And then secondly, while refereeing a game in Qatar, he relieved himself on the pitch while the players were positioning themselves for a corner. link

Fishdoll tsk tsk, such bad manners!

FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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kurtsimonw
post Nov 7 2009, 09:54 AM
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I know you try to be as fair as possible, Jack, but sometimes your homerism comes to the front.

QUOTE
Capello ,Carlo, Hiddink, can do what Jose has done, provided the same money.

Carlo won 1 league title in 9 years at Juve/Milan, I've yet to see him really accomplish anything outstanding. Winning the CL is fine, it is a good achievment, but with the squads/players he's had? He's won 3 major titles with these clubs, 1 competition every 3 years. I have to say that's a prety awful record. Carlo may not have directly spent any money, but Inzaghi, Sheva, Nesta, Rui Costa, etc. were players at his disposal and they weren't exactly free.

QUOTE
Sacchi already proved it with Milan. The point is none of these coaches were constantly given the same amount of resources that Jose has been.

I disagree strongly with this. Did Jose spend money? No doubt, and lots of it. But in relation to the money spend and the time they spent it, Sacchi certainly spent more. Didn't Sacchi break the World transfer record once or twice with his signings? The Milan of the late 80s/early 90s was probably the first Galactico's era in modern football! Jose didn't break World records, in fact, I don't think he broke the British record. Sheva may have come close, but then I'd even say that weren't his signing.

I think too much emphasis and spotlight is put on his time at Chelsea. It's the same with MON at Villa, we have a section of support that doesn't like him and say he'd only done well at Celtic because it was a 2 horse race, but he had ridiculous success at Wycombe and Leicester, just like Jose had at Porto.

Jose didn't leave because he wasn't doing well, hell, they didn't win the league the season before he left either. I think he was sick of being undermined by the owner.
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Jack Sparrow
post Nov 7 2009, 10:28 AM
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QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Nov 7 2009, 03:24 PM) *
I know you try to be as fair as possible, Jack, but sometimes your homerism comes to the front.


Carlo won 1 league title in 9 years at Juve/Milan, I've yet to see him really accomplish anything outstanding. Winning the CL is fine, it is a good achievment, but with the squads/players he's had? He's won 3 major titles with these clubs, 1 competition every 3 years. I have to say that's a prety awful record. Carlo may not have directly spent any money, but Inzaghi, Sheva, Nesta, Rui Costa, etc. were players at his disposal and they weren't exactly free.


I disagree strongly with this. Did Jose spend money? No doubt, and lots of it. But in relation to the money spend and the time they spent it, Sacchi certainly spent more. Didn't Sacchi break the World transfer record once or twice with his signings? The Milan of the late 80s/early 90s was probably the first Galactico's era in modern football! Jose didn't break World records, in fact, I don't think he broke the British record. Sheva may have come close, but then I'd even say that weren't his signing.

I think too much emphasis and spotlight is put on his time at Chelsea. It's the same with MON at Villa, we have a section of support that doesn't like him and say he'd only done well at Celtic because it was a 2 horse race, but he had ridiculous success at Wycombe and Leicester, just like Jose had at Porto.

Jose didn't leave because he wasn't doing well, hell, they didn't win the league the season before he left either. I think he was sick of being undermined by the owner.


I don't get this part.

I can argue that Mourinho had Cole, Terry, Lampard, Makalele at his disposal too. Maybe not CL material, but definitely good enough to win the league, which Mourinho did after spending some more.

And the transfer record has really no basis.

So suppose Milan paid 94 million euros to buy Ronaldo, they've broken the world transfer record

And Real Madrid did all the purchases they did this season except perhaps instead of CR9 they buy Robinho for 20 million (coz Man City found out Robinho is gay and sold him for a discount).

Do you know what the record fee Sacchi spent was ? 6 million for Ruud Guulit. Even adjusted for inflation I doubt it would cross 25 million euros.

You can argue Capello and Lentini but Lentini's price of 13 million, would be around 40 million today. A large sum but not inordinate.

Here's the breakdown.:

WENGER:
(Year - Expense/Income)


2004/05 - £1,000,000 / £2,600,000
2005/06 - £32,350,000 / £13,700,000
2006/07 - £11,900,000 / £27,600,000
2007/08 - £13,200,000 / £9,500,000

SAF:

2004/05 - £20,000,000 / £3,850,000
2005/06 - £17,500,000 / £6,500,000
2006/07 - £35,600,000 / £15,200,000


Benitez:

2004/05 - £25,550,000 / £10,500,000
2005/06 - £36,900,000 / £9,500,000
2006/07 - £44,800,000 / £13,630,000
2007/08 - £22,500,000 / £19,900,000

MoN:

2006/07 - £24,650,000 / £3,050,000
2007/08 - £8,750,000 / £10,000,000
(He spent 44 MM the next season)

Mourinho:
2004/05 - £56,850,000 / £12,700,000
2005/06 - £92,400,000 / £20,800,000
2006/07 - £7,000,000 / £15,800,000
2007/08 - £13,500,000 / £6,000,000



I'll break it down even further. This is from an old Times article:

Manchester United’s total spending since the 2004-05 season : £116.1m

2007-08: £55 million

2006-07: £18.6m

2005-06: £17.5m

2004-05: £25m

Won: Premiership 1, Carling Cup 1



Chelsea’s total spending : £213.7m

2007-08: £0

2006-07: £66.3m

2005-06: £56.4m

2004-05: £91m

Won: Premiership 2, FA Cup 1, Carling Cup 2



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kurtsimonw
post Nov 7 2009, 10:45 AM
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QUOTE (Jack Sparrow @ Nov 7 2009, 09:28 AM) *
I don't get this part.

I can argue that Mourinho had Cole, Terry, Lampard, Makalele at his disposal too. Maybe not CL material, but definitely good enough to win the league, which Mourinho did after spending some more.

There's a difference though. Inzaghi, Sheva, Nesta and Rui probably cost up near £75m for the 4. Terry was a youth player, Lampard cost £10m, Cole cost £10m and Makelele was a bit more expensive, but it still doesn't compare to £70m-odd.

QUOTE (Jack Sparrow @ Nov 7 2009, 09:28 AM) *
And the transfer record has really no basis.

So suppose Milan paid 94 million euros to buy Ronaldo, they've broken the world transfer record

And Real Madrid did all the purchases they did this season except perhaps instead of CR9 they buy Robinho for 20 million (coz Man City found out Robinho is gay and sold him for a discount).

Do you know what the record fee Sacchi spent was ? 6 million for Ruud Guulit. Even adjusted for inflation I doubt it would cross 25 million euros.

Prices in football aren't relative to inflation, you know that. The top end is the top end, regardless. Breaking the World record for £1m in 1960 is no different that breaking the World reocrd for £6m in 1990, it's just what the top footballers cost. I will agree that there are some exceptions, like what Madrid did this year, that kind of spending goes way and above the norm and I highly doubt you'll see many transfers surpass the Zidane/Figo prices like that agin.



I'm not intending to be awkward, I'm just having a little trouble understand some of these figures.
QUOTE (Jack Sparrow @ Nov 7 2009, 09:28 AM) *
WENGER:
(Year - Expense/Income)


2004/05 - £1,000,000 / £2,600,000
2005/06 - £32,350,000 / £13,700,000
2006/07 - £11,900,000 / £27,600,000
2007/08 - £13,200,000 / £9,500,000

SAF:

2004/05 - £20,000,000 / £3,850,000
2005/06 - £17,500,000 / £6,500,000
2006/07 - £35,600,000 / £15,200,000


Benitez:

2004/05 - £25,550,000 / £10,500,000
2005/06 - £36,900,000 / £9,500,000
2006/07 - £44,800,000 / £13,630,000
2007/08 - £22,500,000 / £19,900,000

MoN:

2006/07 - £24,650,000 / £3,050,000
2007/08 - £8,750,000 / £10,000,000
(He spent 44 MM the next season)

Mourinho:
2004/05 - £56,850,000 / £12,700,000
2005/06 - £92,400,000 / £20,800,000
2006/07 - £7,000,000 / £15,800,000
2007/08 - £13,500,000 / £6,000,000



I'll break it down even further. This is from an old Times article:

Manchester United’s total spending since the 2004-05 season : £116.1m

2007-08: £55 million

2006-07: £18.6m

2005-06: £17.5m

2004-05: £25m

Won: Premiership 1, Carling Cup 1



Chelsea’s total spending : £213.7m

2007-08: £0

2006-07: £66.3m

2005-06: £56.4m

2004-05: £91m

Won: Premiership 2, FA Cup 1, Carling Cup 2

There's no way in hell Villa spent near £25m in MONs first season, no way. He joined the club very very late and only signed Petrov and Maloney on fees, the rest were free transfers. The combined fees for the 2 were only around £8m. We then signed Carew in swap with Baros and Young for £9.5m, so that works out to around £17m or so.

Onto Chelsea. In the Jose breakdown, you have him spending £92m and selling £20m worth, which would come to £72, yet on your 'further breakdown', the total spending for that year is £56m, how does that work out, or am I mising something?

=============================================================================

Overall, I do understand and agree with your point, I'm not suggesting Jose hasn't been given tonnes of money. But re-read my next to last paragraph on my previous post and you'll see what I mean. Everyone knows Jose won alot at Chelsea, but we know he was given the funds to do so too. I will add that on a spend-per-year basis, Ranieri spent more and won nothing, while Jose won an average of 2 trophies per season, so it shows it wasn't only the money, otherwise Ranieri would have won at least something. But I go back to his time at Porto, I doubt we'll see a CLass B team winning the European Cup anytime soon, UEFA thought they'd stopped that happening when they introduced the Champions League, but you can't stop Jose. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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dst
post Nov 7 2009, 12:29 PM
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I agree with Kurt on the money issue, it does not guarantee success. I think Mourinho did an amazing job at Chelsea. His CL victory with Porto though is in my view the fluke of the century. La Coruna's and Monaco's achievements that season were bigger. (edit: I mean harder to achieve and more important but in the end it's of course the title that matters)
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kurtsimonw
post Nov 7 2009, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE (dst @ Nov 7 2009, 11:29 AM) *
I agree with Kurt on the money issue, it does not guarantee success. I think Mourinho did an amazing job at Chelsea. His CL victory with Porto though is in my view the fluke of the century. La Coruna's and Monaco's achievements that season were bigger. (edit: I mean harder to achieve and more important but in the end it's of course the title that matters)

You know I don't agree. I know Deportivo and Monaco beat some good team, but it's not like Jose had it easy. They did beat United, ironically they knocked out both Deportivo and Monaco too. I did feel sorry for Monaco that year though, after beating Chelsea and Madrid in the past 2 rounds, I thought it was going to be 'easy' for them in the Final.
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