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Posted by: Fillipo Simone Oct 5 2014, 11:10 AM

So, not a bad match allover, but for me there are two clear groups of players who played well and those who haven't.

Our fullbacks were top on today. Especially De Sciglio made a few very good passes and runs. Abate - needless to say - was good as well but had minor defensive problems. Alex and Bonaventura did also very well, Menez was okay. It's a bit hard to tell who's MoM because IMO no one was that outstanding. So my vote goes to MDS.

The bad group - starts with Muntari, who would be flop if he hadn't score that great goal that saved him. But my pick will be Rami; too many individual mistakes - unbelievable errors in passing and positioning.

Torres could have done also much more. Honda was okay, but his finishing leaves much to be desired. Nevermind the good free-kick, but he wasted 2 good chances with a bad miss. Nevertheless, a good game.

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 5 2014, 11:38 AM

Top - Bonaventura. Really impressed me yesterday. Lots of hard work and good skills. I just prefer him in the midfield three than on the wing.

Flop - Muntari. I don't care about the goal, had Chievo used that 3v1 opportunity better, we'd be bashing him even harder. Not to mention the overall lazy, clueless performance. The guy is so slow even on FF he would still look slow.

Posted by: Jack Bauer Oct 5 2014, 12:41 PM

DS and Jack were great but I gave it Honda, not just for this game but also for the whole start of the season. Even though it's not his natural position, he still delivers most of the time.

My flop is Rami. He gotta be a lot better if he wants to remain in the first 11.

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 5 2014, 12:53 PM

I reckon Zapata will take his place next week.

As for Honda, eh, I don't know what to say. He's delivering because he's an exemplary professional that gives his all in every game. But this is the maximum he can do. For a #10, his vision and passing are very limited. The fact that Pippo plays him on the wing makes it twice as worse. For me, either he plays in the center or he doesn't play at all.

Posted by: amancik Oct 5 2014, 03:19 PM

Hard to drop Honda now that he's our top-scorer.

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 5 2014, 03:59 PM

Yeah, I know, the guy is very hard to drop at this point. And Pippo will keep playing him out position. You know, Honda's situation is very similar to Özil's at Arsenal. Both being played wide when they give their best in the center, only that Özil doesn't have the same work ethic Honda does and thus far hasn't been performing, at all.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Oct 5 2014, 06:05 PM

I don't know guys. I find it a bit funny. You all are so convinced Honda has been played out of position that one would think Inzaghi is fielding him as a fullback or defender.

I read an interview were Zaccheroni stated that Honda plays naturally more to the right. Then you have to inexperienced coaches who still were players - Seedorf even a midfielder - who start him there week after week. So what's the deal? You think Inzaghi is blind or just stubborn? At least Seedorf had the excuse of having Kaka in his team. But now there's little to no problem to shift Honda's position - unless the player and the coach both agree it's good for him.

All in all, Honda is exactly what Milan is today. Good, solid, working, but rough of the edges, with less potential that one would believe at the first glance and limited capabilities. I'm not sure that playing him in a deep central role or a classic AM role would make that kind of difference y'all are expecting.

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 5 2014, 07:24 PM

I remember that Zaccheroni interview. He did say though that Honda gives his best in the center. The thing is that I don't expect him to change drastically if played there. I actually said that in another thread. Honda has shown all the quality he has, and regardless of where he plays he won't become a better player. But at least his impact will be different. Pippo, just like Seedorf, plays him too far wide, and that affects his contribution to our game. He's not fast, he's not physically strong, he can't beat his opponent or make long runs. You see him many times isolated on the right, or in situations where he can't do more than the simple pass due to his incapacity to utilize the spaces as a natural winger would. So, either play him centrally or don't play him at all.

Posted by: Jack Sparrow Oct 6 2014, 06:39 AM

I think we're all struggling with unrealistic expectations.

So far I'm very satisfied with how the team has performed.

I mentioned in the prediction thread that if Torres scores 15-20 goals this season we will end up chasing CL, else the expectation is that we end up in Europe.

Currently Torres isn't scoring at that rate, and we are 5th in the table. With the squad we have, this is very very respectable. I have hopes that Montolivo, Lopez and MvG returning would improve our steam. Hopefully a CB addition in the winter market as well. Someone talented and exciting. Though no hopes on that.


All in all, I give this team 7.5 on 10. So we are pretty much meeting expecations. On the flip side that we are top scorers in the league is an added filip.

--

Just one point on how we pick on players like Muntari and Bonera. They're average players. When we say we wish them to give their best every match, it doesn't make sense. At their best they're good players. But day in and day out, if they showed that kind of performance they would be a level higher than where they're at now.

The fact that they have mediocre games with the occasional good display is what ensures they will remain average. This is all you get for what you pay. Simple as.

---

Posted by: Danny Oct 6 2014, 07:09 PM

Told you so

Posted by: Danny Oct 6 2014, 07:11 PM

Top - Menez - made things happen in the second half after a quiet first.

Flop - Muntari it has to be, albeit Rami was pathetic as usual too.

Cannot understand why so many Milanistas love Rami. He's as bad as Bonera's become. I get the feeling this £500,000 has turned him into a cult hero, when in reality he paid it because no one else wanted him and Valencia sure didn't want him back.

Our best defence, as I've preached since OD, is Alex and Zapata.

Posted by: han2503 Oct 6 2014, 07:46 PM

Zapata is just as mistake prone as Rami. They're at the same level, they bring different qualities to the table, but at the core of it both are good players on their day who can be very mistake prone when it's not their day

Zapata has made one positional or passing error in each game he played so far this season including the pre-season games.

Rami was very good last season next to Mexes when Seedorf gave them a prolonged run. Also this is probably the first time he's played next to Alex this season for a full 90 minutes. We need continuity in that back line, no matter who's playing because this constant shift would effect anyone

Posted by: Danny Oct 6 2014, 07:54 PM

Zapata is at his best next to Alex as they can communicate far better in their native languages than either can with Rami.

Fact is our defence's best display this season was v Lazio.

Posted by: han2503 Oct 6 2014, 07:57 PM

You can't say that because it's only one game, they could just as easily play the next one together and have an absolute mare of a night.

Fact is we don't know right now what pairing is best because we have not been able to see a consecutive run of games with the same pairing.

And Zapata and Alex do not share the same native tongue so that justification is out the window

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 6 2014, 10:17 PM

How about we sell everyone and sign two decent CBs? That would be the best.

Posted by: han2503 Oct 6 2014, 10:25 PM

I think we have 2 more than decent ones (Alex and Mexes), Rami and Zapata are just okay, can be good on their day, horrible on others and then we have the lowest of lows (Bonera and Zaccardo)

Posted by: Danny Oct 6 2014, 10:31 PM

Zaccardo is a RB.

Posted by: Danny Oct 6 2014, 10:31 PM

Well if we sell the whole team we'll get £15M and that's not enough for a good reserve defender.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Oct 6 2014, 11:32 PM

Mexes is unaccountable I think. Best would be to sell Mexes and one of Rami/Zapata, then try sing someone with perspective and a bit more quality.

Mexes is clearly unwanted, he earns much and bring little on the plate. Unless we enter a complete overhaul, which won't happen I believe. Zapata and Rami both could achieve a solid market value or could be a bargaining chip.

Anyway, we have too many average/solid/good defenders in our sheet - but no real prospect or space for improvement.

Posted by: han2503 Oct 7 2014, 07:56 AM

Zaccardo hasn't been a RB since probably his Palermo days

He's been playing at CB for years now, certainly while he was at Parma. Sure he "can" play RB now but he's mostly used as a CB because he's painfully slow.

And the "can play" statement I would use loosely when talking about Zaccardo playing any position. Just an awful player and still do not understand why we even looked his way twice, let alone signed him to a long term deal

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 7 2014, 11:42 AM

Yeah, Zaccardo is a CB nowadays.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Oct 7 2014, 11:58 AM

All in all, Zaccardo could be a striker as well, but he's no real use for us.

Posted by: Danny Oct 7 2014, 12:43 PM

Squad depth, plain and simple.

Posted by: han2503 Oct 7 2014, 01:47 PM

Really? Can it be classified as squad depth when you'd rather throw in a literal headless chicken instead of him?

I think our problem is we have too much "squad depth" and no real top quality.

Zaccardo in or out of the team won't make one iota of difference to our team during a season, I doubt he'll ever see the field this season anyway. I think keeping on Bonera for all these years is more than enough mediocre "squad depth"

Posted by: Danny Oct 7 2014, 03:30 PM

When we signed him we had only one RB, Abate, and a lack of cover for CB - only had Bonera, Mexes, Silvestre Zapata, and Rami in total. A utility player for CB and RB in one was a handy player to have.

He did actually play one good match for us - in Genoa, 2-0 v Sampdoria. He was actually very good that day.

But that said we tried to get of him and he rejected it. So, we're stuck with him till his deal is over.

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 7 2014, 03:38 PM

I thought Zaccardo's contract expired in 2015, but it actually expires in 2016. What in god's name was Galliani thinking? We'll be stuck with him for the next two years. Money down the drain.

PS: It's funny how we sold Pirlo supposedly because we were only giving 1-year contracts to over 30 players yet we ended up giving a three year contract to a fucking dud such as Zaccardo.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Oct 7 2014, 05:50 PM

We've already established all these points.

But is it really money down the drain? I don't think so. If it wasn't Zaccardo, it would be yet another player of pretty much the same potential and capabilities. Fact remains, Zaccardo isn't the problem; yes his contract is too long, but he's earning peanuts compared to other players who don't play or ain't good enough, yet have big ballast with their contracts.

Posted by: acid911 Oct 7 2014, 06:32 PM

For instance, a player whose name begins with the letter M?

Posted by: Danny Oct 7 2014, 08:05 PM

We didn't sell Pirlo, we let him go on a free.

But while it's worked out very nicely for Juve, fact is he was in poor form for us inside the final 3 years of his time at San Siro.

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 7 2014, 10:48 PM

It shouldn't be anyone at all. Why have someone like Zaccardo? What purpose does he exactly fill? None. I don't care if he earns €800,000 per season. That's €1.6 million including taxes. We begged Rami to pay €450,000 out of his own pocket, yet we are willing to spend €1.6 million for a player who serves no purpose. It doesn't matter if his name is Zaccardo or Fred or Johnny. We shouldn't sign useless players who will warm the stands, not even the bench, every Sunday.



You don't say! Please excuse my poor choice of words.

Posted by: Jack Sparrow Oct 8 2014, 05:28 AM

Then who should we sign? The next Thiago Silva? How do you idealize things into as simple as buying superstars for big money or buying hot young talent for next to nothing?

I don't think it's that simple. We have little money, and I for one am satisfied that this season's transfers are showing some value. We are correcting the mistakes of the past three years. I think I'm willing to give it a year.

Posted by: han2503 Oct 8 2014, 09:10 AM

I think the issue here is that we didn't need him in the first place, this is a typical case of Galliani seeing a free agent and signing him because he can't help himself rather than looking at the needs of the side, remember Traore?

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Oct 8 2014, 10:16 AM

Well, considering all our injuries, at one point it seemed justifiable. The problem is, you guys make it sound like the whole problem evolves on Zaccardo. While in fact, we're paying him peanuts and this season, he's perhaps the only true useless player around. Also, we tried to sell him. So...I don't see any problem.

Posted by: Jack Sparrow Oct 8 2014, 10:48 AM

^^ Exactly. When he was purchased he wasn't useless. We were one injury away from probably playing Muntari as CB.

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 8 2014, 12:31 PM

A Primavera kid can do the job better than Zaccardo.

When you sign players, sometimes they might turn into a revelation, or they might be a let down. But sometimes you know exactly what you're getting. The moment we signed Zaccardo I was like "BUT WHY?" because I knew he was crap and an unnecessary addition. Same argument goes for Matri. We all knew he shouldn't have been signed and our prediction came true.

The point is, don't sign players that everyone and their grandmas know are unnecessary. It's OK to gamble with players like Acerbi or Nocerino, because with them there is room for experimentation and improvement in premise (even though they turned out crap in the end). But with players like Zaccardo and Matri you know exactly what you're getting for, so simply don't bother wasting money, especially when for a beggar club like us every penny is precious.

Posted by: Jack Sparrow Oct 8 2014, 12:35 PM

I personally feel that entire above argument is based on hindsight.

There were similar arguments raised about Abate initially, and more recently about Alex. This isn't a 100% success game anyway. Zaccardo is a failed transfer. Yes. He isn't the first, he won't be the last. Get over it.

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 8 2014, 12:42 PM

No, it isn't. That's my point. Some things are just plain out there in your face. Zaccardo has always been crap, even in his prime. What exactly can make you think he will be useful at the age of 31? We were so desperate to get rid of Mesbah, that we ended up signing someone else just as useless.

But it's not Zaccardo that's my problem. It's the attitude of the management, of Galliani. Some of the deals he makes are illogical and unreasonable. And then he complains we don't have money. Well, stop throwing away club resources you bald f*ck!

Posted by: Jack Sparrow Oct 8 2014, 02:18 PM

In other words, you demand a club that has no money should only make 100% successful transfers even if they're on free or low cost.

Or else play primavera players and basically throw them to the wolves, because 'even' primavera players can play better than 'this lot'. And I disagree coz:

1. I do not think it's possible for any club to have a 100% transfer record
2. I do not have any evidence to suggest primavera players are good enough to replace some of the others in the squad.

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 8 2014, 03:13 PM

Nah Jack, I don't expect a 100% transfer record. But from that 100%, 5-10% goes to senseless signings. And we've made a lot of them in the past few years, a lot. I want us to stop spending money on players who are absolutely not worth it in foresight. Zaccardo, Matri and Agazzi were three such signings. I'm not arguing about the likes of Essien, Acerbi, Nocerino, Niang, even frigging Mesbah, because one could say those signings had some sort of potential even though they flopped.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Oct 8 2014, 03:15 PM

We did, didn't we? This singing period was sound in this direction. Zaccardo belongs to these mistakes of the past.

Posted by: Rossoneri7 Oct 8 2014, 09:00 PM

He didnt do much, Torres and so he's my flop.

This new team from the better players we have till the lower level ones;i just can not relate!

The coach on the other hand, i am fond of very much. The team plays in an interesting manner this season. Our attack has become leathal, and given time will only get sharper. Then the defense, has been laced with the usual problems; conceding set-pieces without a reference point (sometimes left for Bonera).

Posted by: Jack Sparrow Oct 9 2014, 06:36 AM

I actually believe this setpiece nonsense has arisen since we started zonal marking. Can anyone explain what benefits it gives.

@X-Off: Ok, I understand a lot better where you're coming from. So my memory is bleak but I think Zaccardo was brought in when we had Bonera, Zapata and Mexes out injured but I couldn't be certain. The past three years have been so traumatic my brain is actively suppressing those memories.

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 9 2014, 11:54 AM

No, I'm pretty sure we got Zaccardo in exchange for Mesbah.

I don't remember there being an emergency, but even if there was, do you actually go and sign a new player just for a couple of games? That's nonsense logic. If the majority of our defenders were injured, then play some Primavera kid, or utilize De Sciglio as CB. You DO NOT go and sign a crappy, overaged defender that we are gong to regret having and will be difficult to get rid of JUST FOR A COUPLE OF GAMES!

But that's fail Galliani logic for you. He did the same with Legrottaglie back in 2011.

Posted by: han2503 Oct 9 2014, 09:59 PM

x-off is right, we got Legrottaglie when we were having that crises and he ended up out cold on his debut

And Zaccardo was part of the Mesbah deal, basically we brought in one rubbish player to get rid of another, just like we always do. Birsa to get rid of Traore last season for example

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Oct 9 2014, 10:51 PM

Both of you are correct in a way. But hell, Zaccardo isn't worth the trouble. He's just a bench warmer, not important about him.

Posted by: han2503 Oct 10 2014, 08:58 AM

You're missing the point, Zaccardo as the person isn't the issue here, what Zaccardo represent is. He's the personification of many mistakes made by this management throughout this last decade in their quest to sign every free agent out there.

Zaccardo alone on his - as you call it - irrelevant 0.8m per season (which still translates to 1.6m per year mind you) might not look all that bad, but when you've had a squad littered with these kinds of players paying them these kinds of salaries and then not being able to sign someone we actually need because we have a grotesque wage bill, IS a major issue.

Also, Zaccardo's current wage might not seem like much when looking at our wage bill as a whole, but look at any other Serie A side's wage bill (a side that would actually want Zaccardo) and see which of them would pay that kind of money to an over the hill CB. None, because that money is what they usually pay to their best player not a Zaccardo level player.

It's why we can never get rid of these guys once we sign them. Of course they don't want to go to another team, they're more than comfortable at Milan earning their big wages and doing nothing but coming into training each day and they also get to enjoy pitch side matches each week so that's also a bonus.

Which again goes back to Zaccardo alone not being a true issue but what he represents is

Posted by: Jack Sparrow Oct 10 2014, 10:47 AM

And I think Filippo's point is that that issue is not one anymore. The Zaccardo types have been moved out on loans and sales and such.

Zaccardo himself was just one person who we couldn't ship out in the oddest of circumstances. Now barring a brilliant Favalli-esque resurgence in games from him, I expect him to ship out too - either in January or next summer.

His total wages off our bill mean nothing. 1.6 million will pay for no one, perhaps it will help to deal with giving Abate and De Jong new contracts with pay hikes.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Oct 10 2014, 11:44 AM

Indeed, Jack is right. As I said earlier on, we made a error-proof transfer summer market. So why do we dwell on past mistakes?

And yes, I know the answer. You two pessimists are not convinced we turned the page for real. Agreed, we used to shift or go up and down one too many times in the past years, which makes you very inclined to be pessimistic at times.

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 10 2014, 12:18 PM

Yes, just because we didn't sign any useless players this summer doesn't mean we won't make such mistakes again in the future. You can't use one signing campaign as proof for that. This management is prone to errors, and that's not going to change until Silvio and Galliani GFTO.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Oct 10 2014, 12:22 PM

Agreed. But over-analyzing also loses it's sense after a while.

Posted by: han2503 Oct 10 2014, 02:22 PM

The fact that we only got rid of them on year long loans does not remove the problem, it's just postponing it to a later date

And as I said, 1.6m alone means nothing, but add up all the rubbish players we've been maintaining over the years and it's not such a meagre amount then


We're still paying for a few of those past mistakes as some of them are on loan and we're still paying parts of their wages.

I think we can only say that the "Zaccardo syndrome" is gone for good if we actually see Galliani making a decent effort at not going after free agents and then giving them undeserved wages. We got Agazzi this summer and then tried to get rid of him a month into pre-season but he refused to move. That to me does not look like Galliani has learned anything from his own past mistakes