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> Serie A - Week 16 Onwards, Milan - SPAL

 
X-Offender
post May 8 2019, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE (Danny @ May 8 2019, 12:51 AM) *
But as long as our manager is allegedly calling our black players negros, we're not getting out our hole any time soon.


Where did you get this information?

QUOTE (Danny @ May 8 2019, 12:53 PM) *
Ha! Klopp spent 150M on two players! Don't kid yourself on that he's taking an average group of players up a level!

He's a wonderful manager, yes, but he has a great group of players too. An expensive group that he spent a bucketload on.


150M for two players in today's football, especially for a rich English side, is pretty normal. Then again, you don't measure the quality of good players based on monetary value. We spent next to nothing for guys like Cafu, Pirlo, Seedorf, Kaka' and they were the stars of our team and some of the world's best.

I agree with Fillipo that without Klopp this Liverpool side wouldn't be where they are right now.
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Danny
post May 8 2019, 11:17 PM
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QUOTE (X-Offender @ May 8 2019, 10:46 PM) *
Where did you get this information?


I'm only surprised it's not on here.

QUOTE
150M for two players in today's football, especially for a rich English side, is pretty normal. Then again, you don't measure the quality of good players based on monetary value. We spent next to nothing for guys like Cafu, Pirlo, Seedorf, Kaka' and they were the stars of our team and some of the world's best.


Not the point. He has spending power we can't even fantasise about.

QUOTE
I agree with Fillipo that without Klopp this Liverpool side wouldn't be where they are right now.


So do I. They also need the players he's spent the money on. Took him 3 or 4 years to build it. If it was all down to management alone he'd have them where they are now the season he took over.
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han2503
post May 9 2019, 08:37 PM
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QUOTE (X-Offender @ May 6 2019, 08:28 PM) *
UPDATE: Apparently Gattuso called Bakayoko to replace Biglia but the Frenchman refused to enter.

Who's petty now, Han?

Both imo. But Bakayoko has my backing here and I'll explain why

This all started with the Acerbi shirt incident. The club did not back our players, they were making a joke, the club chose to fine him along with the league. Fine. It was not a malicious act but whatever.

Then Bakayoko suffers through a week of racist abuse including during the game where there were monkey chants and bananas being waved around. The lega said nothing, not even a slap on the wrist for Lazio and our club did not back Bakayoko either.

Then the late to training incident happened, where Bakayoko apparently had car trouble and arrived an hour late, a legit reason, but Gattuso decided to make an example out of him and fining him plus sending the entire team into a ritiro. Then is emerged that this over reaction from Gattuso came because all the players were not showing good discipline in training. So he used Bakayoko to make an example out of him

I get that he should come on when his coach asks him to, but you have to admit that the club and Rino have both been sh!tty to him. Not to mention how he must feel about the lega actions that were taken on him for holding up a shirt in jest, but nothing was done about the racist abuse hurled towards him

QUOTE (Danny @ May 8 2019, 12:51 AM) *
At least we won?

No question there's a new order in European football. One which looks remarkably like the 70s and 80s coming back. Ajax, Liverpool...

Meanwhile the traditional powerhouses Milan, Man Utd, Real, even Barca are now starting to dwindle.

The final four in the UCL was a big clue as to where things are.

The new order is Liverpool, Ajax, PSG, Man City, and to an extent Juve and Bayern.

But as long as our manager is allegedly calling our black players negros, we're not getting out our hole any time soon.

I would lump Liverpool and Ajax along with Milan, Real etc. They have 5 and 4 European Cups respectively, sure they have gone through ups and downs, but they always remain huge clubs in my mind. Maybe for Ajax it's more of an uphill climb, but they're not some trendy jaunt in the CL like PSG or City.

And really you mention those clubs but take Real out of the equation when they have won the thing for the last 3 years running...

I actually think Spurs are the far more exciting and important team in the equation right now. PSG and City have bottled it at every chance they got, I barely even take them into consideration when discussing potential CL winners
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Danny
post May 10 2019, 04:09 PM
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Take your point on Real Han but this season they've monumentally collapsed. Ronaldo factor, pure and simple.
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han2503
post May 10 2019, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (Danny @ May 10 2019, 04:09 PM) *
Take your point on Real Han but this season they've monumentally collapsed. Ronaldo factor, pure and simple.

Sure but you can't really say they're on their way down. They'll probably go crazy on the transfer market this summer as well, so they won't stay down for long
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Danny
post May 11 2019, 03:29 PM
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QUOTE (han2503 @ May 10 2019, 08:44 PM) *
Sure but you can't really say they're on their way down. They'll probably go crazy on the transfer market this summer as well, so they won't stay down for long


Going crazy with transfers is absolutely no guarantee of anything. Look at Man Utd. Spent a fortune over the past few years and in a mess. Look at us that Chinese summer.

Using the money wisely is key, along, in their case, of adequately replacing Ronaldo. Which they can't do because he's only one man. So, not really sure how they'll get back to their usual selves any time soon tbh.

If Milan can fall. If Man Utd can fall. So can Real.
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William405
post May 11 2019, 07:02 PM
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QUOTE (Danny @ May 11 2019, 05:29 PM) *
Going crazy with transfers is absolutely no guarantee of anything. Look at Man Utd. Spent a fortune over the past few years and in a mess. Look at us that Chinese summer.

Using the money wisely is key, along, in their case, of adequately replacing Ronaldo. Which they can't do because he's only one man. So, not really sure how they'll get back to their usual selves any time soon tbh.

If Milan can fall. If Man Utd can fall. So can Real.


I see your point. But, I don't think they will fall as low as us or Man U. Specially, given that the leauge is mainly dominated by Barca and Real. I don't see Real falling into 5th place anytime soon. And, as far as the Champions leauge goes, yes sure maybe they won't win it anytime soon, but they won it how many times in the last 10 years? It won't be that big of a problem IMO. Add to that the amount of money they have, they will surely find another Ronaldo. Maybe they will buy Hazard?
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X-Offender
post May 11 2019, 07:58 PM
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WTF happened to Piatek? He turns to sh*t everything he touches.
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Danny
post May 11 2019, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (X-Offender @ May 11 2019, 07:58 PM) *
WTF happened to Piatek? He turns to sh*t everything he touches.


Low confidence and form is a contageous disease. He joined, things were good, he played well and justified the fee. Danny comes back, form of the side goes to cr*p and he loses his way.

If the team as a whole is playing bad, it's very difficult for one man to thrive.
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Danny
post May 11 2019, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (William405 @ May 11 2019, 07:02 PM) *
I see your point. But, I don't think they will fall as low as us or Man U. Specially, given that the leauge is mainly dominated by Barca and Real. I don't see Real falling into 5th place anytime soon.


EPL is now dominated by Liverpool and Man City. It's resembling Spain now. If Man Utd can fall to 6th place, and us to 7th and 8th, Real are just as capable too. Maybe they won't, but they could.

QUOTE
And, as far as the Champions leauge goes, yes sure maybe they won't win it anytime soon, but they won it how many times in the last 10 years? It won't be that big of a problem IMO. Add to that the amount of money they have, they will surely find another Ronaldo. Maybe they will buy Hazard?


Hazard is already well over 28 and no Ronaldo. Never close to it. World class player but not a patch on Ronaldo - he can't replace him. No one can. Kind of like, in a more modest example, no one could replace Ibra for us.
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han2503
post May 12 2019, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE (Danny @ May 11 2019, 03:29 PM) *
Going crazy with transfers is absolutely no guarantee of anything. Look at Man Utd. Spent a fortune over the past few years and in a mess. Look at us that Chinese summer.

Using the money wisely is key, along, in their case, of adequately replacing Ronaldo. Which they can't do because he's only one man. So, not really sure how they'll get back to their usual selves any time soon tbh.

If Milan can fall. If Man Utd can fall. So can Real.

Agreed, but they are Real and can attract a certain level of player, something we couldn't do in recent years considering no CL participation. Same with Utd. If there is a binary choice for a player between Utd and Real, they'd always choose the latter

And yes Ronaldo is a huge loss, but Hazard is most likely going there next season and I'm sure they'll replace Bale and Benzema with top players. Maybe they can't replace Ronaldo with just one man, but Benzema and Bale have been under performing terribly for a while now with Ronaldo picking up the slack, so if they can replace them with top quality players of the same level as Hazard, Ronaldo's output will probably be replicated.

Of course this all depends on the choices they make, but I can't really see them falling to hard in any scenario

QUOTE (William405 @ May 11 2019, 07:02 PM) *
I see your point. But, I don't think they will fall as low as us or Man U. Specially, given that the leauge is mainly dominated by Barca and Real. I don't see Real falling into 5th place anytime soon. And, as far as the Champions leauge goes, yes sure maybe they won't win it anytime soon, but they won it how many times in the last 10 years? It won't be that big of a problem IMO. Add to that the amount of money they have, they will surely find another Ronaldo. Maybe they will buy Hazard?

Agreed. And Real have had their years of not performing in Europe as well, let's not forget, it took them a good while to win their 10th after they won the 9th in 02

And yeah, Hazard is probably on his way there this summer

QUOTE (X-Offender @ May 11 2019, 07:58 PM) *
WTF happened to Piatek? He turns to sh*t everything he touches.

He's without service 99% of the time. The output he was giving when he first came was the freak situation, what's happening now is what is normal and expected for a striker no matter how good considering he barely gets a single decent ball all game

QUOTE (Danny @ May 11 2019, 08:54 PM) *
Low confidence and form is a contageous disease. He joined, things were good, he played well and justified the fee. Danny comes back, form of the side goes to cr*p and he loses his way.

If the team as a whole is playing bad, it's very difficult for one man to thrive.

Yep, we can't expect him to keep performing to the unrealistic level he was before when he spends games chasing futile cr@p balls
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X-Offender
post May 12 2019, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE (han2503 @ May 12 2019, 09:48 AM) *
He's without service 99% of the time. The output he was giving when he first came was the freak situation, what's happening now is what is normal and expected for a striker no matter how good considering he barely gets a single decent ball all game


That's not what I meant. I said the times he actually gets the ball, he completely f*ck up even the simplest of passes.
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Danny
post May 12 2019, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (han2503 @ May 12 2019, 09:48 AM) *
Agreed, but they are Real and can attract a certain level of player, something we couldn't do in recent years considering no CL participation. Same with Utd. If there is a binary choice for a player between Utd and Real, they'd always choose the latter

And yes Ronaldo is a huge loss, but Hazard is most likely going there next season and I'm sure they'll replace Bale and Benzema with top players. Maybe they can't replace Ronaldo with just one man, but Benzema and Bale have been under performing terribly for a while now with Ronaldo picking up the slack, so if they can replace them with top quality players of the same level as Hazard, Ronaldo's output will probably be replicated.


That's absurdly abstract. And utterly invalid. So they'll replace one man via about three? What about the influence individually of those other two men? That's the loss. You don't buy bits of players, you buy players - and if they can't replace Ron's 5000 goals a season via one other alternative player (and they can't), they can't replace him.

By having three players replace one, the output individually is lost - which is a weakening. A significant one.

QUOTE
Of course this all depends on the choices they make, but I can't really see them falling to hard in any scenario


Their hubris and your transferral hubris on their behalf is the exact problem. Pre-2012 we'd never ever have dreamed of our Milan ending up here.
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Danny
post May 12 2019, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (han2503 @ May 12 2019, 09:48 AM) *
Yep, we can't expect him to keep performing to the unrealistic level he was before when he spends games chasing futile cr@p balls


It wasn't unrealistic, it was his standard level. He's now suffering the garbage of a team completely out of ideas, form, confidence and quality.
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han2503
post May 12 2019, 08:55 PM
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QUOTE (X-Offender @ May 12 2019, 02:47 PM) *
That's not what I meant. I said the times he actually gets the ball, he completely f*ck up even the simplest of passes.

When the service is cr@p the output will follow in the same line.

When he was scoring with practically every shot he took in January and February we weren't giving him stellar service. Look at the equalizer against Atalanta for example, totally scored that off a hit and hope cross from Rodriguez. That's what I mean by it being freakish, because no one could keep that rythm up

And I don't get what you mean when you say he f@cks up the simplest of passes. He holds up the ball well and generally brings teammates into play well. But the chances he's had so far were difficult ones to score from because they're not in good positions due to poor service. He's increasingly cutting a frustrated figure out there. It cannot be easy

QUOTE (Danny @ May 12 2019, 07:30 PM) *
That's absurdly abstract. And utterly invalid. So they'll replace one man via about three? What about the influence individually of those other two men? That's the loss. You don't buy bits of players, you buy players - and if they can't replace Ron's 5000 goals a season via one other alternative player (and they can't), they can't replace him.

By having three players replace one, the output individually is lost - which is a weakening. A significant one.

Their hubris and your transferral hubris on their behalf is the exact problem. Pre-2012 we'd never ever have dreamed of our Milan ending up here.

I think you took me out of context there

I'm not saying that 3 players replace 1. I'm saying that Benzema and Bale haven't produced big numbers and Ronaldo's freakish self carried the load before. And I agree that Hazard won't replace Ronaldo's numbers, but with him and 2 other top quality players instead of Bale and Benzema, Real could replace the output of Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema with the output of the 3 new players if they buy correctly

What I mean is, if the season before this their output was CR7: 50, Benzema 10, Bale: 10, they replace them with 3 players who can score a combined 70 goals but more evenly spread as no one would be able to produce the kind of numbers Ronaldo did

Obviously it's not as simple as that, as it's more than just numbers, but taking Ronaldo's 50 goals out of the equation has definitely crippled Real, and my thinking is that their first order of business should be to bring players in who could produce those kind of numbers, maybe not individually but as a collective attacking force

Btw, those numbers are just an example, not their exact scoring tally

QUOTE (Danny @ May 12 2019, 07:30 PM) *
It wasn't unrealistic, it was his standard level. He's now suffering the garbage of a team completely out of ideas, form, confidence and quality.

I think scoring a goal from every single shot was unrealistic. No one has those kind of stats. It's telling that even then he was basically only being provided with a maximum of 1 or 2 chances per games and he was scoring off of them, even when most of them were half chances. His form has no doubt dropped but I always expected it to, because that was an unrealistic bar he was setting. The issue is that the service remained the same, and even got worse so combine his slight dip with the average of1 to 2 chances per game, and things were never going to remain at that kind of level
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