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> ‘Allegri not Milan’s problem’

 
han2503
post Nov 5 2013, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE (Jack Sparrow @ Nov 5 2013, 04:25 PM) *
And who was available at that time to replace Allegri? Who? With a lesser team and with the same ambitions was there any proven coach who would drink from that poisoned chalice?

Benitez before Chelsea maybe. But even with Napoli he came on after he was convinced of a project and good on Aurelio he delivered on his promises.

As for the financial situation, I don't think anyone in the world is capable of forecasting an economic crisis besetting the nation. Or FFP coming into play. I think Serie A has always been a league historically of bankrolled clubs, so to turn around and point fingers at it is just using hindsight to act all clever.

What if Abramovich is accused of a crime and jailed? Are Chelsea automatically stupid and should their DoF be fired coz he couldn't make out a new plan? What if the banks truly go belly up in Spain? Are DoFs of Madrid and Barca stupid and single handedly the reason for the finances?

Before you point to Bayern Munich who are now quite clearly the pinnacle of European football clubs in every way, I'll just let Filippo explain the kind of long transformation that the club went through under Uli Hoeness to reach this stage.

You know how many talented coaches there are in Italy who could have come in and done a much better job than Allegri? Hundreds. Just as there are hundreds of other terrible coaches which are on Allegri's level.

Donadoni, Rijkaard, Spaletti, etc, etc I could go on listing names. How did Roma find Garcia, if there were so many few options. Fiorentina have Montella, Inter got Mazzarri, these are all options we could have went for but we never even tried. Galliani always wanted to keep Allegri and that's what he got, Allegri could have easily been the Roma coach at this point in time because they wanted him. I'd love to see that alternate universe, they'd probably be in our current position

As for Galliani, how can you stand there and tell me he wasn't at fault??? Who gave the senior players huge 4m plus contracts? Who has amassed the biggest wage bill in the league for years, even as the quality of the squad declined? Who sold Ibra and Thiago for peanuts because he brought in Ibra when he knew it was financially impossible to keep him? The list is endless, but anyone could have told you that his biggest mistakes started to be made after we won that CL. Had he not given out those exorbitant wages to senior players who were past their primes we wouldn't be in a situation where we were losing huge amounts of money each year. Galliani ran us into the ground, Allegri is just one of the symptoms of his huge shortcomings.

He's not even any good at brokering good deals on the transfer market for us anymore. He's made this club an emberassment
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Fillipo Simone
post Nov 5 2013, 07:00 PM
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Well, that's funny. I've been studying for quite some time the history of the Habsburg Empire. Historiography pointed out that this exceptional world power declined and fell in 1918 because of the many centrifugal and centripetal forces that tear the country down.

We have quite a similar situation here with Milan. You have Allegri which is one (obvious) level. Then you have the management with the Galliani and the Berlusconi level. End finally you have Italy and Europe as a important and sometimes overseen context. You mention those contracts Han...but honestly, I don't think they ruined us financially. They just tried to delay the obvious decline in quality. Finivest, the Italian economic crisis and the whole economic situation of Europe has more to do with this then Galliani's contract concept.
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acid911
post Nov 5 2013, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Nov 6 2013, 12:00 AM) *
They just tried to delay the obvious decline in quality.

I won't deny that, not after taking everything in context as you mentioned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif) But these were the years the management absolutely should have been at their most shrewed, at its most active. They threw away Leonardo and out went the Brazilian Connection.

Then one senile decision after another (mostly by Galliani) meant that we ended up in a hole. And now with Allegri getting another season or two, we are just not stopping the digging process. Milan, as a club, is just getting buried deeper and deeper. Finishing seventh would, I reckon, be a neat enough wake up call to these sleepyheads.
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han2503
post Nov 5 2013, 08:55 PM
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QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Nov 5 2013, 07:00 PM) *
Well, that's funny. I've been studying for quite some time the history of the Habsburg Empire. Historiography pointed out that this exceptional world power declined and fell in 1918 because of the many centrifugal and centripetal forces that tear the country down.

We have quite a similar situation here with Milan. You have Allegri which is one (obvious) level. Then you have the management with the Galliani and the Berlusconi level. End finally you have Italy and Europe as a important and sometimes overseen context. You mention those contracts Han...but honestly, I don't think they ruined us financially. They just tried to delay the obvious decline in quality. Finivest, the Italian economic crisis and the whole economic situation of Europe has more to do with this then Galliani's contract concept.

The economic crises has no baring on the fact that we have had an insanely high wage bill, exacerbated by the fact that we were giving 4m contracts to guys like Seedorf, Rino, Ambro, Dida, etc for years, even when they were reduced to being bench players they were earning as much money as our most important players. Don't forget that the 4m is multiplied by 2 because of the taxes. So those are huge figures going down the drain each year. We were no longer winning or going deep into the CL, we were paying huge fees to keep players on which were no longer contributing to the team, we have had a huge squad for years now.

We have the 2nd highest wage bill in the league only behind Juve, and this was only the case from this season because last season we were the highest on the list. How do you explain this when the squad quality has declined so much, why are we still paying so much money to players when we no longer have the names to justify those amounts? Why were we giving out contracts of 1.2m per season to a player like Traore, when no one knew one single thing about him. These are all just random things that have led us to where we are now
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servbot
post Nov 5 2013, 09:16 PM
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Of course, Allegri is not the only problem, but he can only be accountable for the things he can control. Some of these things include:

- Terrible substitutions
- Strategic failures
- Alienating players from the team
- Constantly starting the wrong players such as Muntari, Urby, etc.
- A squad that looks unmotivated and disinterested
- Possible poor training methods that lead to a disproportionate number of injuries

These aren't just from this year either. There's a pattern of these problems with Allegri at the helm. They were easier to ignore when we finish 1st, 2nd, and rally to finish 3rd. Can they be excused now?
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han2503
post Nov 5 2013, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE (servbot @ Nov 5 2013, 09:16 PM) *
Of course, Allegri is not the only problem, but he can only be accountable for the things he can control. Some of these things include:

- Terrible substitutions
- Strategic failures
- Alienating players from the team
- Constantly starting the wrong players such as Muntari, Urby, etc.
- A squad that looks unmotivated and disinterested
- Possible poor training methods that lead to a disproportionate number of injuries

These aren't just from this year either. There's a pattern of these problems with Allegri at the helm. They were easier to ignore when we finish 1st, 2nd, and rally to finish 3rd. Can they be excused now?

For me they were inexcusable last season and the one before that as well.
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Fillipo Simone
post Nov 5 2013, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (han2503 @ Nov 5 2013, 10:55 PM) *
The economic crises has no baring on the fact that we have had an insanely high wage bill, exacerbated by the fact that we were giving 4m contracts to guys like Seedorf, Rino, Ambro, Dida, etc for years, even when they were reduced to being bench players they were earning as much money as our most important players. Don't forget that the 4m is multiplied by 2 because of the taxes. So those are huge figures going down the drain each year. We were no longer winning or going deep into the CL, we were paying huge fees to keep players on which were no longer contributing to the team, we have had a huge squad for years now.

We have the 2nd highest wage bill in the league only behind Juve, and this was only the case from this season because last season we were the highest on the list. How do you explain this when the squad quality has declined so much, why are we still paying so much money to players when we no longer have the names to justify those amounts? Why were we giving out contracts of 1.2m per season to a player like Traore, when no one knew one single thing about him. These are all just random things that have led us to where we are now

Agreed. And yes, it is making our situation difficult, it is not wise or profitable. But our financial situation depends on Finivest, not on the wage bill.
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han2503
post Nov 5 2013, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Nov 5 2013, 09:37 PM) *
Agreed. And yes, it is making our situation difficult, it is not wise or profitable. But our financial situation depends on Finivest, not on the wage bill.

Sure that is true, but the club's profit and losses are what make or break us, the fact that we were coming up with 60m in losses each year has nothing to do with Fininvest and everything to do with complete and total mismanagement on Galliani's part. Fininvest's unwillingness to bankroll those losses is why we had to cut down on spending, but at the end of the day those losses are there because Galliani let them happen.

Had those losses not been so big, Fininvest's yearly 60m funding could have been put to better use instead of going into pulling us out of the red
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Rossoneri7
post Nov 5 2013, 09:58 PM
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QUOTE (han2503 @ Nov 5 2013, 11:55 PM) *
The economic crises has no baring on the fact that we have had an insanely high wage bill


huh, since when was our wage bill not insanely high? Where do we get losses of 60MM from each year?

The economic crisis has crippled Milan's income domestically. FIGC has not done sh1t to help promote the clubs, other than being a regulator, it serves as a tool for the government. The Italian government my friend ('Europe's third largest industrial nation' as Bloomberg refer to it) is broke. There is no appeal from the outside world other than its culture, the fine wines and its exotic cars. The economic crisis crippled gdp in Italy. Family income is suppressed.

That said, having a insanly high wagebill is what brought you Shevchenko, Kaka, Rui Costa, Seedorf, Nesta, Thiago Silva ... Reducing that wagebill to your Montolivo, Muntari, Mexes ... That is the difference. The problem therefor lies in covering expenses to have players like Nesta, Gattuso, Pirlo etc (at their prime), but where does that income come from? Having read the above, I expect you at at least guess that one.

QUOTE (han2503 @ Nov 5 2013, 11:55 PM) *
, exacerbated by the fact that we were giving 4m contracts to guys like Seedorf, Rino, Ambro, Dida, etc for years, even when they were reduced to being bench players they were earning as much money as our most important players. Don't forget that the 4m is multiplied by 2 because of the taxes.


Seedorf, Rino, Ambro, Dida when they were all 33-35 yrs old were 10x the players we have here. Cafu at 34 against Abate? That team that we had contracts extended for were as Pippo Simone stated above to delay the decline.

And han, 4m multiplied by 2 means players are taxed 100%?

QUOTE (han2503 @ Nov 5 2013, 11:55 PM) *
So those are huge figures going down the drain each year. We were no longer winning or going deep into the CL, we were paying huge fees to keep players on which were no longer contributing to the team, we have had a huge squad for years now.

We have the 2nd highest wage bill in the league only behind Juve, and this was only the case from this season because last season we were the highest on the list. How do you explain this when the squad quality has declined so much, why are we still paying so much money to players when we no longer have the names to justify those amounts? Why were we giving out contracts of 1.2m per season to a player like Traore, when no one knew one single thing about him. These are all just random things that have led us to where we are now


Who would play for 1.2M other than the Traories of the world?

Don't draw your conclusions based on the fact that Milan's global allure alone can work miracles. The magic that we all saw was fueled by Silvio Berlusconi. That fuel is gone, not even Mourinho 'himself' would make you an omlette with this team.


Economic crisis has a lot to do with Milan's situation, in FACT had it not been for economic crisis Milan would still have that magic, as FFP would not have even been thought of.
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han2503
post Nov 5 2013, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (Rossoneri7 @ Nov 5 2013, 09:58 PM) *
huh, since when was our wage bill not insanely high? Where do we get losses of 60MM from each year?

The economic crisis has crippled Milan's income domestically. FIGC has not done sh1t to help promote the clubs, other than being a regulator, it serves as a tool for the government. The Italian government my friend ('Europe's third largest industrial nation' as Bloomberg refer to it) is broke. There is no appeal from the outside world other than its culture, the fine wines and its exotic cars. The economic crisis crippled gdp in Italy. Family income is suppressed.

That said, having a insanly high wagebill is what brought you Shevchenko, Kaka, Rui Costa, Seedorf, Nesta, Thiago Silva ... Reducing that wagebill to your Montolivo, Muntari, Mexes ... That is the difference. The problem therefor lies in covering expenses to have players like Nesta, Gattuso, Pirlo etc (at their prime), but where does that income come from? Having read the above, I expect you at at least guess that one.

When those players you speak of were at their prime we were still making profits because we were winning regularly and going deep into the CL with a final or semi final showing each year, meaning we were usually one of the highest if not the highest earners from that competition, not to mention when you are winning on a regular basis, marketing and investment money comes by a lot more easily.

When did we start making losses? When the team got too old to compete at a high level but we were still paying those players as if they were still at their prime. And these are figures you posted yourself multiple times

QUOTE (Rossoneri7 @ Nov 5 2013, 09:58 PM) *
Seedorf, Rino, Ambro, Dida when they were all 33-35 yrs old were 10x the players we have here. Cafu at 34 against Abate? That team that we had contracts extended for were as Pippo Simone stated above to delay the decline.

And han, 4m multiplied by 2 means players are taxed 100%?

No they weren't, you're just fooling yourself into thinking that. Rino, a personal favourite of mine, had declined so badly by that age you're indicating was simply not even worthy to be on the bench any more, Ambro had become someone who could play a good game once in a while and be terrible for most of the others, Seedorf lost his legs, became even lazier than he was in his best of days and had become someone who didn't contribute to the team. Dida hadn't been a regular for us while still earning 4m per season for years until he ran down his contract. Same goes for Cafu and Serginho who both struggled terribly in their final years with us. Don't forget we were desperate for a RB even when Cafu was still here which is why we bought Oddo.

When a player is earning 4m that means he's costing the club 8m per season. That is the way they are taxed in Italy

The fact is that none of them should have been given the long term lucrative contracts they were given after that CL win, the only player who deserved the extensions and money was Nesta as he always maintained his high level

QUOTE (Rossoneri7 @ Nov 5 2013, 09:58 PM) *
Who would play for 1.2M other than the Traories of the world?

Don't draw your conclusions based on the fact that Milan's global allure alone can work miracles. The magic that we all saw was fueled by Silvio Berlusconi. That fuel is gone, not even Mourinho 'himself' would make you an omlette with this team.

Economic crisis has a lot to do with Milan's situation, in FACT had it not been for economic crisis Milan would still have that magic, as FFP would not have even been thought of.

Ummmm, players like Traore are barely given .5m per year with a normal club. We knew absolutely nothing about him when we signed him, just that he was free. So I'm sure it made sense to give him over 1m in wages yearly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

A proper coach would make this group of players into a great unit, I'm sure of this. The team you're talking about all nostalgically was the one that wouldn't have been able to produce a rotten omelette, because it was a physically depleted side, that had won everything and were still being paid like they were at their peaks while having nothing left to prove.

And like I said to Fillipo, the only reason the economic climate factored into this decline is because Fininvest no longer wanted to cover those losses we were making due to the gross mismanagement we've been under for these last 6 years now
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Rossoneri7
post Nov 5 2013, 10:27 PM
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Wow han .. I am convinced, that reply above was just for the sake of arguing. I am sorry but, that just did not make sense to me. income tax of 100%? I am assured now, you act on impulse.
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han2503
post Nov 5 2013, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (Rossoneri7 @ Nov 5 2013, 10:27 PM) *
Wow han .. I am convinced, that reply above was just for the sake of arguing. I am sorry but, that just did not make sense to me. income tax of 100%? I am assured now, you act on impulse.

This has been discussed a million times here, and not just from me check it out before trying to tell me I'm some impulsive idiot who doesn't think before speaking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And I'm sure you didn't like my reply since it goes against everything you preach about, but to each his own or whatever (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
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KillerMax
post Nov 6 2013, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE (Rossoneri7 @ Nov 5 2013, 04:27 PM) *
Wow han .. I am convinced, that reply above was just for the sake of arguing. I am sorry but, that just did not make sense to me. income tax of 100%? I am assured now, you act on impulse.


So han goes through every point you make and responds to them thoroughly one by one and this is your response?
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