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> Serie A - Week 12 - AC Milan vs. Internazionale FC, Top & flop

Vote top and flop of round 12
Who was our MoM?
Diego López [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Mattia De Sciglio [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Cristián Zapata [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Philippe Mexès [ 2 ] ** [28.57%]
Adil Rami [ 4 ] ** [57.14%]
Michel Essien [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Giacomo Bonaventura [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Sulley Muntari [ 1 ] ** [14.29%]
Jérémy Ménez [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Stephan El Shaarawy [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Feranando Torres [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Keisuke Honda [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Andrea Poli [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
None [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Who was our flop
Diego López [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Mattia De Sciglio [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Cristián Zapata [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Philippe Mexès [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Adil Rami [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Michel Essien [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Giacomo Bonaventura [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Sulley Muntari [ 5 ] ** [71.43%]
Jérémy Ménez [ 1 ] ** [14.29%]
Stephan El Shaarawy [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Feranando Torres [ 1 ] ** [14.29%]
Keisuke Honda [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Andrea Poli [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
None [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Total Votes: 7
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X-Offender
post Nov 27 2014, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Fillipo Simone @ Nov 27 2014, 05:22 PM) *
I disagree. I don't think Han showed any signs of delusion. Having faith in Pato, Balo or SES firstly isn't the same and secondly isn't delusional on a general level.

Balotelli and Pato all had talent - this was indisputable. They showed they are great individuals, they can make the extra goal and pull out the team with their individual strength. Both had mental problems alla Adriano and turned out badly (even thought there is still time to turn this around) - but never was this faith in them misplaced, at least IMO. The talent was there, the potential, no real limitation: just mental issues and (in Pato's case) injuries that made their boom impossible. But putting faith in such players is by no means deluded or extra optimistic. It's a viable as saying "he sucks" just so you can shout "I told you so" later.

SES? He needs to prove himself. Surely. But it's delusional to whine about him of call him names at this point as well. The guy never had a real coach with Milan at the first place, nor did he encounter any help - like Ancelotti provided help to Pirlo in the crucial moment. He also faced a horrendous injury spell and only came out of it this season. The question is, what do we expect out of him? Do we really play to his strengths and build on him?


It's not the same. I had faith in Balotelli. I had faith in Pato. Heck, I loved Pato, but an eventual time came when these players simply could not offer what was initially expected of them. Pato, because his injuries destroyed him, and Balotelli because of his attitude.

I could no longer support Pato in his last couple of years with us. Between recurring injuries and shitty performances, it was plain as day that his talent had gone to waste. But I vividly remember Han defending him, even when we were about to sell him to PSG and buy Tevez in exchange (a deal I was so desperate about), he was against it, and we ended up paying the consequences of that deal not going through. Same with Balotelli. Go a few months back and you'll see Han being against his sale.

Maybe I jumped the gun there saying he's deluding himself, but first Pato, then Balotelli, now SES. It's becoming a recurring trend. Having faith and defending potential "prospects" who lack the talent to justify it.

QUOTE (han2503 @ Nov 27 2014, 05:48 PM) *
@ x-off, as Filippo said, having faith in players who clearly have talent is not delusions, and having faith in someone who's not as talented but works his @ss off isn't either.

I've had faith in Abate for years now, because I could see that he was working his @ss off week in week out and it's paying off.

I'm not deluded into thinking SES is some wonder kid Messi to be. He has talent, but imo, it's limited, especially since he's being played in a position that requires natural technical abilities that I don't think he possesses. But the fact that I see him busting a gut out there when he does play shows me that he's working on it and even if he's not the most naturally gifted player he doesn't give up on personal improvement.

If he doesn't come good within the next 2 to 3 years, sure you can do your "told you so dance" and I'll admit that he wasn't cut out for this, but as of yet, to see people judging him so harshly just does not sit well with me, especially since most of these same people give someone like Muntari their seal of approval each week no matter how horrid he truly is


Abate has always performed. I think we both can agree on this. Thing is, as I mentioned above, that you overrate SES beyond what he's capable of offering. I know you don't consider him the next Messi, but every time he doesn't deliver you still find excuses to defend him. Just because he busts his gut out doesn't mean he's performing. For a winger, he can't dribble. For a striker, he's not accurate. He has a decent touch to the ball, and good passing skills, but that's barely sufficient to become a good and reliable player.
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Danny
post Nov 28 2014, 03:02 AM
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This has turned into an excellent debate.

The Pato and Balotelli example is an intriguing one. Pato showed signs of being a world beater, in a VERY STRONG MILAN TEAM, lest we forget. It all went horribly wrong down to his bad decisions both on and off the pitch, and his general lack of intelligence. However, he shone in a Milan team blessed with top-class players and that's not easy to do if you're not a great player.

Balotelli also shone briefly in a declining Milan team, with 6 months from January last year till the summer, which were basically the best of his career. However since summer 2013 he has been absolutely ghastly, and his talent horribly over rated. A declining but still reasonable Milan helped him look good, and a terrible Milan made him look as he really is - and the same has happened at Liverpool. Talent shines everywhere, even during difficult patches. He's just not very good.

And then we come to SES. We've had him for 4 years - no player in the modern game has been cut the level of slack he has, all because he's young, Italian, has a cool haircut, has a culty-esque following from fans desperate for a hero, and because of 4 excellent months in 2012 where he looked outstanding. However it's also easy to mislead people and say 'he carried Milan' during that time when in fact he came nowhere near it. He scored a few goals and we won the odd match but we were still a midtable team till that 2-2 result in Naples and we went on an excellent run as a whole unit. Had the boy 'carried' us he'd have done what Suarez did at Liverpool last season, or Ibra does for every team he plays for - put us in at least the top 3. That's 'carrying'. But he didn't - we were mediocre till that trip to Naples turned things round that season, and while he scored 2 in that match, it was also the end of his 'carrying' us as the team as a whole drastically improved.

So here we are, literally two years later - and he has been quite simply a shambles. Yet, as I say, a bizarre amount of leeway is given to him by so many supporters.

As for Han's Abate example, not hard to rate a player who has clearly been one of the world's better RB's ever since he replaced Cafu. He isn't Cafu, of course, but only truly blind individuals would ever have claimed he was anything other than good. He's been in especially good form this season, but it's also a bit wide of the mark to have 'stuck by him'. Easy to do that when a player is plainly a good player.
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acid911
post Nov 28 2014, 04:30 AM
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QUOTE (Danny @ Nov 28 2014, 08:02 AM) *
And then we come to SES. We've had him for 4 years - no player in the modern game has been cut the level of slack he has, all because he's young, Italian, has a cool haircut, has a culty-esque following from fans desperate for a hero, and because of 4 excellent months in 2012 where he looked outstanding. However it's also easy to mislead people and say 'he carried Milan' during that time when in fact he came nowhere near it. He scored a few goals and we won the odd match but we were still a midtable team till that 2-2 result in Naples and we went on an excellent run as a whole unit. Had the boy 'carried' us he'd have done what Suarez did at Liverpool last season, or Ibra does for every team he plays for - put us in at least the top 3. That's 'carrying'. But he didn't - we were mediocre till that trip to Naples turned things round that season, and while he scored 2 in that match, it was also the end of his 'carrying' us as the team as a whole drastically improved.

Summed it up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Also totally agreed on the Pato and Balotelli bit, particularly Pato.
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han2503
post Nov 28 2014, 08:08 PM
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QUOTE (Danny @ Nov 28 2014, 03:02 AM) *
As for Han's Abate example, not hard to rate a player who has clearly been one of the world's better RB's ever since he replaced Cafu. He isn't Cafu, of course, but only truly blind individuals would ever have claimed he was anything other than good. He's been in especially good form this season, but it's also a bit wide of the mark to have 'stuck by him'. Easy to do that when a player is plainly a good player.

I'm not going to get into the other points you made as I completely don't agree about SES and it's pointless to get into that particular debate

But this here I just had to comment on. Maybe you're also a person who's always rated Abate, but take a general look around any Milan forum and you'll know that before this season they were hoping he would leave and we'd sign that Croatian dude that ended up at Sassuolo (IRRC his name is Vrslajko or something like that).

People wanted to punt him over to CSKA when they wanted him the summer before this one.

And I was defending him namely to kurt and Fillipo on this very same forum just a few months ago as well

Don't kid yourself, Abate has been underrated/overlooked by many Milan fans over the years and has been called average/bad for many years now. If they're not criticising his defending, they're criticising his crossing or his positioning. It's only this season where people have finally shut up about him
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Danny
post Nov 28 2014, 11:24 PM
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I'm not kidding myself. He's never been heavily criticised by any Rossoneri I've known since he broke through. Ok, they never rated him as highly as he is now, but it was never like 'aw naw, Abate starts AGAIN?!'. He was just appreciated as a solid RB and no more, while he himself is now in sparkling form. Remember he's been more or less Italy's first-choice RB for 3 years. That's not a sudden escalation - he proved himself from 2009 then earned his place in the national side thereafter.

Ha, had giggle at your point re: SES - isn't that hypocrisy? Dare I say a word against Mexes or a word pro-Muntari and you're all over me, and you tell me off when I don't want to argue about it again. And now you're the one pre-emptying the end of any debate re: SES with my line (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Danny
post Nov 28 2014, 11:26 PM
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QUOTE (han2503 @ Nov 28 2014, 07:08 PM) *
People wanted to punt him over to CSKA when they wanted him the summer before this one.


You might want to quote anyone on here who did?

QUOTE
And I was defending him namely to kurt and Fillipo on this very same forum just a few months ago as well


They're both nuts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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acid911
post Nov 29 2014, 12:21 AM
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Well, at least a match poll thread went past 50 posts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) I'm going to name Mexès and Muntari top and flop every match from now on, regardless whether they play or not. For the sake of action!
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han2503
post Nov 29 2014, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE (Danny @ Nov 28 2014, 11:24 PM) *
I'm not kidding myself. He's never been heavily criticised by any Rossoneri I've known since he broke through. Ok, they never rated him as highly as he is now, but it was never like 'aw naw, Abate starts AGAIN?!'. He was just appreciated as a solid RB and no more, while he himself is now in sparkling form. Remember he's been more or less Italy's first-choice RB for 3 years. That's not a sudden escalation - he proved himself from 2009 then earned his place in the national side thereafter.

Ha, had giggle at your point re: SES - isn't that hypocrisy? Dare I say a word against Mexes or a word pro-Muntari and you're all over me, and you tell me off when I don't want to argue about it again. And now you're the one pre-emptying the end of any debate re: SES with my line (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Maybe on this particular forum people have been more demure in how they criticise Abate, just go the the R&B forum or xtratime when you have a chance and look at some of the comments made about him before this season, you'd think some of my Muntari criticism was mellow compared to how they talked about him

I'm not getting into the SES thing because I know how it will end with you and me, so I don't think it's worth it.

You think he's bad and won't amount to anything, I don't. In this case the argument is more subjective as we're both basing this all on what we think will happen in the future.

With Muntari it's completely different, we're not talking about someone who might finally actually be half decent in the future, we're talking about someone who repeats the same sh!t each week and people still find it in them to somehow overlook it and defend his place in the team while with SES or even DS people are jumping on their backs the minute they have dips in form.

QUOTE (Danny @ Nov 28 2014, 11:26 PM) *
You might want to quote anyone on here who did?

I remember we were offered something like 10m for him and people were more than willing to see him go if we got that money. I'm not even going to try to search for these quotes as they're buried in the massive transfer thread of that particular summer
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Danny
post Nov 29 2014, 04:08 PM
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People were willing to take £10M including me as Seedorf refused to play him, so we gave up on him ever being selected and resigned to MDS on the right and whoever on the left. And 'might as well get money for Abate while we're at it' type thing.

Re: R&B etc I've never used any of the big Milan boards - too full of trolls, so I can only go by on what I've seen here, DM, and MM.

One last thing, you know how SES will go with you and I so why do you bother with Mexes and Muntari? It's not like they're any different (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
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han2503
post Nov 29 2014, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE (Danny @ Nov 29 2014, 04:08 PM) *
People were willing to take £10M including me as Seedorf refused to play him, so we gave up on him ever being selected and resigned to MDS on the right and whoever on the left. And 'might as well get money for Abate while we're at it' type thing.

Re: R&B etc I've never used any of the big Milan boards - too full of trolls, so I can only go by on what I've seen here, DM, and MM.

One last thing, you know how SES will go with you and I so why do you bother with Mexes and Muntari? It's not like they're any different (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

No, this was during the summer when Seedorf wasn't even Milan coach, Allegri was and Abate has always been a starter under Allegri

Be that as it may about the boards, on these small forums you only have a very small pool of people to really get a general opinion off of. With the bigger boards, yeah you have douchey people, but you do get a much larger number of people, thus a clearer image of what the general opinion is

As for Mexes/Muntari re: SES. I do think it's a completely different situation, because as I explained above, we're mostly trying to guess at what SES could do in the future imo, he's obviously not the finished product and whether he turns into a mediocre product or a great one is all up in the air, and any opinion on that is just guess work on our parts

However, with Mexes and Muntari things are much more black and white, at least for me they are.

With SES for example, I can more than agree that he just hasn't been good this past season and a half, he's struggling this season and spent nearly the entirety of the last one out injured. It's not what we expected after he broke through the first team 2 years ago. However I don't agree with how some of you guys keep getting on his back, and this started while he was out injured last season and people started getting p!ssed off at him because of the hair cut and the endorsement work he was doing.
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Danny
post Nov 30 2014, 02:49 AM
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QUOTE (han2503 @ Nov 29 2014, 04:16 PM) *
No, this was during the summer when Seedorf wasn't even Milan coach, Allegri was and Abate has always been a starter under Allegri


Won't lie, I ain't sure I remember that one. Can't find any references to it. The only one I can remember was PSG for £10M.

QUOTE
Be that as it may about the boards, on these small forums you only have a very small pool of people to really get a general opinion off of. With the bigger boards, yeah you have douchey people, but you do get a much larger number of people, thus a clearer image of what the general opinion is


Meh. I prefer a smaller sample of people whose views can be taken reasonably seriously, rather than a million trolls saying cr*p like sh*tlegri.

QUOTE
As for Mexes/Muntari re: SES. I do think it's a completely different situation, because as I explained above, we're mostly trying to guess at what SES could do in the future imo, he's obviously not the finished product and whether he turns into a mediocre product or a great one is all up in the air, and any opinion on that is just guess work on our parts


Not the finished product? He's 22 and by his age, and I hate to use this example, Balo knew what he was. Zlatan knew who/what he was. The great players know by very early 20s the kind of player they are and what they are. Iturbe is barely 21 and has excelled at Roma since he joined. He was great at HV and I made a huge mistake not wanting him. They've been careful not to overuse him but he's been excellent.

So don't use the age excuse which you're implying at by saying he's not the finished product. It's a cop out and you know it.

QUOTE
However, with Mexes and Muntari things are much more black and white, at least for me they are.


Not for me. I rate both on what I believe I see per match. If Mexes plays what I believe is a good match I say so. If Muntari stinks I say so. You don't seem able to criticise Mexes or praise Muntari.

QUOTE
With SES for example, I can more than agree that he just hasn't been good this past season and a half, he's struggling this season and spent nearly the entirety of the last one out injured. It's not what we expected after he broke through the first team 2 years ago. However I don't agree with how some of you guys keep getting on his back, and this started while he was out injured last season and people started getting p!ssed off at him because of the hair cut and the endorsement work he was doing.


No, I gave up on him by the end of 2012/2013. He was mince between that November and the following summer and that was enough of a flat patch to warrant skepticism. That we're sitting here November 2014 and he's still sh*t suggests he is never going to be the player you really want him to be.

Why shouldn't we get on his back? 24 months of poor displays and you expect him to be given room? Not a chance. If he shows up and plays a stormer my God I'll give him credit. But I am not going to sit here giving him chances after chances after yet more failures.
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han2503
post Nov 30 2014, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE (Danny @ Nov 30 2014, 02:49 AM) *
Won't lie, I ain't sure I remember that one. Can't find any references to it. The only one I can remember was PSG for £10M.

This was an offer CSKA made, before he switched over to Raiola, his previous agent also said that the move was close to being completed but fell through

QUOTE (Danny @ Nov 30 2014, 02:49 AM) *
Meh. I prefer a smaller sample of people whose views can be taken reasonably seriously, rather than a million trolls saying cr*p like sh*tlegri.

Even if they are trolls, you can easily see who they value as players and who they don't. I'm not someone who frequents those forums either, just to be clear, but I do look into it from time to time to see what the general feel on X, Y or Z is

QUOTE (Danny @ Nov 30 2014, 02:49 AM) *
Not the finished product? He's 22 and by his age, and I hate to use this example, Balo knew what he was. Zlatan knew who/what he was. The great players know by very early 20s the kind of player they are and what they are. Iturbe is barely 21 and has excelled at Roma since he joined. He was great at HV and I made a huge mistake not wanting him. They've been careful not to overuse him but he's been excellent.

So don't use the age excuse which you're implying at by saying he's not the finished product. It's a cop out and you know it.

Zlatan at 22 was not the finished product, what do you mean he knew what he was? As in he knew he was a striker? Balo at 22 wasn't the finished product and he certainly isn't a finished product now. Heck, Cristiano wasn't a finished product by that age. Very few players reach that level at such a young age (ex: Messi, original Ronaldo)

If you're talking about the fact that SES is played as a winger, that's not really his fault, he hasn't had any proper coaching since he cam to Milan, the only stable coaching figure he had was Allegri. For me, he's not a winger, he's a striker, but the fact that he hasn't been allowed to even try playing in that position isn't his fault.

QUOTE (Danny @ Nov 30 2014, 02:49 AM) *
Not for me. I rate both on what I believe I see per match. If Mexes plays what I believe is a good match I say so. If Muntari stinks I say so. You don't seem able to criticise Mexes or praise Muntari.

Name one game where Muntari was actually good and you could say with a straight face "great performance"

And Mexes has only played twice so far this season and both times you were sure he'd be diabolical, yet he wasn't. He was good vs Samp and was one of our best players against Inter.

QUOTE (Danny @ Nov 30 2014, 02:49 AM) *
No, I gave up on him by the end of 2012/2013. He was mince between that November and the following summer and that was enough of a flat patch to warrant skepticism. That we're sitting here November 2014 and he's still sh*t suggests he is never going to be the player you really want him to be.

Why shouldn't we get on his back? 24 months of poor displays and you expect him to be given room? Not a chance. If he shows up and plays a stormer my God I'll give him credit. But I am not going to sit here giving him chances after chances after yet more failures.

This all goes back to the points I made above with regards to his age or his "identity" as a player.
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Fillipo Simone
post Nov 30 2014, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (kurtsimonw @ Nov 27 2014, 08:08 PM) *
SES has, generally, been very poor for 2 years now. He's had maybe a handful of acceptable performances. His lack of ability/mistakes are obviously not as costly to the team as he's higher up the field. But people try to find the positives in his performances, when they'll look for the negatives in the same quality of performance for lesser liked players.

He's just bad.

Thing is, out of those 2 years, half and more was spent being injured or recuperating. All I wanted to say is, let's cut him some slack. He's one of the more talented and younger players we have around him, so I won't shout "he's just bad" yet. For that we have Muntari (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

QUOTE (acid911 @ Nov 27 2014, 08:19 PM) *
Nah, man, the hustle and bustle that he puts up in every match is not effort. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's the minimum requirement, and while it is good to see the guy putting in the steps all the time, or always, as you put it, that's not what I meant. Flamini put this in every time he was here, and look where that took him.

Where? I never liked Flamini, but the guy was plagued with injuries and as soon as he managed to escape the vicious cycle he turned up for Milan and played actually good. So what's the example here? I really think we made a mistake by letting him go: he wasn't anything special and had a big salary, but he'd be surely better then both Essien and Muntari.

QUOTE
What I need to see is effort and SES trying to develop his game, failing and then picking himself up, asserting himself on the pitch, enhancing his game reading skills and visions, as well as his dribbling, pace and finishing. Keep on improving as any young player should and he'll get there.

Yeah well, let's give him time, shall we? I don't get why you fall into these fix and petrified judgments already?


QUOTE
Han beat you to it, my friend, and I've answered part of your question above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif) Lazy he is not, but crazy he is a bit, in that he is wasting time developing his game. His skills repertoire. As of this writing, at least for me, his range and talent is lower than Balotelli, let alone Pato.

Does he have time? Oh plenty. But with this attitude, he is just going to end up being a pedestrian player. We've all seen guys like him that failed to do justice to the break they got by being lulled into a false sense of security. Injuries haven't helped, I know, but were SES developing his game, concretely, it would have shown.

Now you see, I think people just like to construct this attitude problem. Where exactly did SES show attitude problems and where does his mentality offers especially negative examples? People don't like his hair: I agree. But what did he do other then that? Act in some commercials? Milan practically invented the thing with footballers starring.


QUOTE (X-Offender @ Nov 27 2014, 08:47 PM) *
Maybe I jumped the gun there saying he's deluding himself, but first Pato, then Balotelli, now SES. It's becoming a recurring trend. Having faith and defending potential "prospects" who lack the talent to justify it.

Yes, it is a pattern. A pattern that shows patience and open-mindness. Nothing more, and certainly nothing negative there.
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