Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: han2503 Aug 8 2015, 01:08 PM

All Champions league talk for the coming season here

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Aug 8 2015, 03:43 PM

Lazio evaded United but got Leverkusen. Perfect opportunity to test our debate from last season on Italian and German sides Han, yes?

Posted by: han2503 Aug 8 2015, 04:05 PM

I think it should be a good match up

Hopefully Lazio don't let me down here because they should be beating Leverkusen imo. They have some very talented players in their squad

Posted by: X-Offender Aug 8 2015, 07:14 PM

First time ever an Albanian team makes it in the final play-off round. Skënderbeu vs Dinamo Zagreb. Bring it on, Fillipo!

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Aug 8 2015, 07:32 PM

Are you by any chance planing to visit Zagreb?

Posted by: X-Offender Aug 8 2015, 10:06 PM

Nope, don't have the time.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Aug 8 2015, 11:00 PM

Another time then

Posted by: kurtsimonw Aug 20 2015, 08:49 PM

Good start for Lazio.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Aug 20 2015, 09:12 PM

Lucky, but yes. Good.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Aug 26 2015, 09:11 PM

So, seems to me that Lazio is going down fast. Not that it was unexpected, at least not for me. Sadly.

Posted by: X-Offender Aug 26 2015, 09:31 PM

Terrible game form them. Didn't do jackshit for the whole 90 minutes.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Aug 26 2015, 09:33 PM

Pioli messed up about everything. Picking three defenders while Mauricio struggled already in the first game. The midfield was non-existant, no real striker options...well, here it goes. Yet another German-Italian duel going in favor of the Germans.

Posted by: X-Offender Aug 26 2015, 09:47 PM

The Germans are far ahead. What's important is to catch up the English.

Posted by: Danny Aug 26 2015, 10:49 PM

That won't take long. Italy is building momentum. Juve, Inter and Roma are looking like going places. If we could just get our act together we'd join them. But those three (and Fio & Napoli) will be solid in UCL and UEL for years to come - England are absolutely ghastly and just get worse each season.

In 5 years it'll be Spain, Germany, France, Italy, England.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Aug 26 2015, 11:12 PM

Are you sure about that one? I'm not an expert in EPL but,...

Posted by: Danny Aug 27 2015, 01:14 AM

Can't be certain, but EPL fails at UCL year on year. Past 3 finals have seen zero English teams and the past 3 semi finals have seen one. 6 teams, only one of which was English.

For the richest, strongest, most 'powerful' league on earth supposedly, its best teams are increasingly failing at UCL.

Italy have suffered a dreadful lull since Milan won UCL, but Juve's progress last season coupled with strong showings at a European level from Napoli and Roma among others suggests England is moving in one direction while Italy is improving.

People look at the money and the hype and forget that the EPL actually isn't very good. It's entertaining, but if you picked a world XI, how many players from EPL would be in it?

I'd have (top of my head, it's late and I'll forget loads):

Neuer, Zabaleta, Silva, Hummels, Alba, Modric, Kroos, Hazard, Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez

Two. Two from Germany, the rest from Spain.

Posted by: acid911 Aug 27 2015, 01:35 AM

Silva ain't got nothing to do with Spain, Germany or England, Danny.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Aug 27 2015, 07:01 AM

I'm still not convinced. You picked the XI, but forgot that none of the mentioned players is from - Italy. For all I know last season was a fluke. This one started rather badly for Italy - Lazio not making it as a possible 3rd Italian CL entry, while Sampdoria already got eliminated from the EL.

Posted by: Danny Aug 27 2015, 09:57 AM

I didn't forget. I just confirmed right now the best players in the world are mostly Spain with Germany and England thrown in. Italy doesn't have a single player worthy of a world XI. But its clubs do appear to be on the slow improvement re: Europe. 2 in UCL and 3 in UEL.

England have 2 in UEL and 4 in UCL.

5 years ago someone claimed France were on the up - I scoffed. But they now have 2 in UCL and 4 in UEL. That's more & better than they were 5 years ago.

Either way the one thing I do believe for sure is England deteriorate every passing season. None of Utd, Arsenal, City or Chelsea will make a dent. Best they can hope for this season is one quarter finalist. Most likely a park the bus Chelsea, as usual.

Posted by: Danny Aug 27 2015, 09:58 AM

Maybe it's early but I'm not sure the point you're trying to make here

Posted by: X-Offender Aug 27 2015, 10:46 AM

Silva plays in France. You said two from England, two from Germany and the rest from Spain.

Posted by: Danny Aug 27 2015, 11:02 AM

Like I said, it was late when I made that post, and early when I read Acid's point

Posted by: han2503 Aug 27 2015, 02:30 PM

Now with Samp and Lazio crashing out I can't see Italy catching up to England.

As expected, Lazio f@cking things up, this is what happens when a random team gets a CL spot from Italy, always does. I was bombarded in May for saying that Lazio would ruin Italy's chances, just like past teams have, and look where we are now.

For Italy to become a force in Europe again, Juve, Milan and Inter need to all be back to their best, even Roma and Napoli are huge failures in Europe

Posted by: Danny Aug 27 2015, 03:09 PM

fwiw I don't actually care if Italy becomes a force in Europe again, unlike 99% on here I support Milan and only Milan. The other teams can rot for all I care. I don't give a toss if Italy gets success in Europe - it's of no interest to me. I am just stating a fact - England's teams are rapidly declining in Europe, while Spain, France and Germany's get stronger. Italy's are too, much more slowly though. And I believe in 5 years at the rate England are deteriorating they will slip down the rankings swiftly while Italy will slowly improve. I think in 5 years both will be quite comparible in terms of where they are in the coefficient.

2011:

England had 4 teams in the top 10, with Utd at #1.

2012:

3 teams, Utd at number 2.

2013:

3 teams, Chelsea at number 3

2014:

3 teams, Chelsea at number 4

2015:

3 teams, Chelsea at 4

2016:

2 teams, Chelsea at 4

Italy 2011:

2 teams in top 10, Inter at 9

2012:

1, Inter at 7

2013:

1, Inter at 7

2014:

0

2014:

0

2015:

0

2016:

1, Juve

England have gotten steadily worse every season while Italy have been a bit up and down, but right now they're slowly rising while England continue to rot.

Posted by: han2503 Aug 27 2015, 03:16 PM

^^ Sure, but Italy's chances of gaining ground on England now, even if they have another average year in Europe is being rapidly reduced with every team that drops out. Roma will most likely fail at coming out of their group, let's face it.

Posted by: acid911 Aug 27 2015, 03:36 PM

Hey, my abacus also needs an oiling late night and early morning.


98%, actually. Though I do have some sweet sports for the good teams in Serie A. And dare I say, even for our cousins across the city. No one comes close to Milan though, and technically, the whole league needs an overhaul in several areas for them to stake it in Europe, anyway.

I do remember when they had 4 places guaranteed, those were good times, I do say.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Aug 27 2015, 06:46 PM

Since this seems to be the season of my personal rash predictions and fast judgments, let me add that now that the draw has been made, both Italian clubs could very well end up being eliminated after round one:

Juventus
Manchester City
Borussia Mönchengladbach
Sevilla

Barcelona
Leverkusen
Roma
BATE

While Chelsea and especially United seem to have a prepaid easy pass to the next round. Unbelievable how lucky United always gets. All English clubs have excellent chances of going through the first round.

Posted by: han2503 Aug 27 2015, 07:46 PM

United ALWAYS get an easy group. I don't ever recall them getting a Barca/Real/Munich in their group, at least not any time in recent memory.

And well, as we're talking about Italy failing. This could easily see Italy without any representation in the KOs

Although Juve should make it through their's considering the failure City are in this competition, if Juve manage to win both games against them it's game on

Posted by: han2503 Sep 15 2015, 12:28 PM

CL football back tonight. Juve-City looking mighty tasty.

Juve have been terrible so far this season while City are generally terrible in the CL. Will be interesting to see who's the least terrible on the night

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Sep 15 2015, 12:50 PM

We'll see. My tip is it will end up a draw.

Posted by: han2503 Sep 15 2015, 01:19 PM

If I had to put my money on someone though, I'd probably put it on City. Juve have been a down right mess this season. The Chievo game imo was a new low for them.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Sep 15 2015, 01:26 PM

Agreed.

Posted by: X-Offender Sep 15 2015, 03:07 PM

Easy win for City.

Posted by: han2503 Sep 15 2015, 03:43 PM

I sort of want that, because watching Juve get even more demoralised will be great fun for us all.

But on the other hand, I still want the Italian clubs to do well... Such a dilemma.

Posted by: X-Offender Sep 15 2015, 09:38 PM

Juve have just too much quality.

Posted by: han2503 Sep 16 2015, 07:12 AM

Their midfield play was pretty terrible imo, however their defenders barely let City get a look in and 2 moments from their strikers won them the game.

Anyway, good night for Italy with both English sides losing.

We can still hope to pry that 4th spot away from them yet

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Sep 16 2015, 09:21 AM

In the end, United, Chelsea and Arsenal will prevail and reach the next stage. I don't think our clubs can match or surpass that.

Anyway. I just noticed how awful some groups are. Is this maybe the weakest group phase CL ever? So many bad teams involved.

Posted by: han2503 Sep 16 2015, 10:29 AM

Sure, they will get through, but the co-efficient situation is in a very precarious moment right now. All it takes if for 1 CL team and 1 EL team from Italy to do well like last season and we can be in a great position to take their spot.

Getting to the KOs is all well and good, they had teams in the KOs last season as well, while we only had Juve, but with the teams performing like they did in the EL and Juve's run to the final, it gave Italy a huge boost in the co-efficients.

Add to that the 11/12 (I think) season being earased which was very good for England and poor for Italy, so there's still a chance

Posted by: X-Offender Sep 16 2015, 11:15 AM

Here's to hoping. Since I don't think we can make it to the CL this season, if the 4th spot is available next season and with a good mercato we could finally be back. Lots of ifs, though...

Posted by: han2503 Sep 16 2015, 03:20 PM

I don't see it as something that is solely important for us, but for the entire league

I think if we really want to get back to where we should be, the 4th spot shouldn't even be on our radar.

Posted by: X-Offender Sep 16 2015, 09:39 PM

Nicely done, Roma.

Btw, Florenzi scored a euro goal.

Posted by: han2503 Sep 17 2015, 01:42 PM

The place where I was watching literally went nuts when that goal went in

Posted by: kurtsimonw Sep 17 2015, 02:48 PM

Zabaleta is terrible. He and Kompany fell off a cliff last season.

Posted by: han2503 Sep 17 2015, 03:07 PM

From 4 English sides, only 1 won their opening game...

Pretty good so far.

Hopefully Fiorentina and Lazio do well tonight as well

Posted by: William405 Sep 17 2015, 07:46 PM

Napoli killing it

Great week for Italian football till now.

Posted by: han2503 Sep 17 2015, 08:39 PM

Oh, forgot about Napoli

Posted by: han2503 Sep 29 2015, 08:19 PM

Roma playing like a bunch of amateurish idiots here.

Posted by: X-Offender Sep 29 2015, 08:34 PM

Which they are.

Posted by: han2503 Sep 29 2015, 08:51 PM

This just reinforces me theory that for Italy to be great in Europe again, it needs Juve, Inter and Milan all back to their best, not the likes of Roma, Fiorenina or Lazio

Posted by: X-Offender Oct 1 2015, 09:58 PM

So, 4 wins and 1 loss for Italian clubs in Europe this round, against 2 wins, 2 losses and 2 draws for English clubs. More points?

Posted by: han2503 Oct 2 2015, 09:53 AM

Probably...

Will check it out

Posted by: han2503 Oct 2 2015, 10:10 AM

So I read up a bit. And with this week's results Italy earned 1.33 points and England earned 0.75 points.


The current co-efficients look like this

---------------11/12----12/13-----13/14-----14/15-----15/16-----Rank----Teams
1 Spain------20.857---17.714----23.000----20.214----5.785----87.570----7/ 7
2 Germany--15.250---17.928----14.714----15.857----5.142----68.891----7/ 7
3 England---15.250---16.428----16.785----13.571----4.375----66.409----6/ 8
4 Italy-------11.357---14.416----14.166----19.000----4.000----62.939----5/ 6


So had Roma won, Italy would be ahead of England in terms of this year's points.

By the end of this season the 11/12 points will be wiped out. So going by that, the current point tally would be; England: 51.159, Italy: 51.582

So it's really down to the wire this season and it all depends on how the clubs do this year if Italy wants to have 4 spots to compete for next season. Thus Italy could potentially have 4 teams in the 17/18 season

Posted by: William405 Oct 2 2015, 09:14 PM

Interesting! Awesome in-depth look Han.

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 7 2015, 04:06 PM

So, Italy right now has a total of 53.082 points against England's 52.784...

Posted by: han2503 Nov 7 2015, 04:09 PM

Hmm, have the 11/12 season points been taken off the board?

Posted by: X-Offender Nov 7 2015, 07:14 PM

Yes.

Posted by: han2503 Nov 24 2015, 09:06 PM

Watched 15 minutes of the Barca Roma game, don't want to watch anymore of that slaughter. The gap in quality is just painful to watch. Roma have once again been terrible in the CL.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Nov 25 2015, 12:08 AM

To be quite frank, football is ruined to me. It's not as fun as it was, not half as much.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Dec 9 2015, 11:00 PM

I think you can capitulate now Han. Leverkusen knocked out both Lazio and Roma.

Posted by: milanbuf88 Dec 10 2015, 02:05 AM

I think Roma advanced based on head to head results against Leverkusen.

Posted by: X-Offender Dec 10 2015, 05:18 PM

Yeah, Roma passed through. What you on, Fillipo?

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Dec 10 2015, 05:28 PM

Oh, my TV-reporter claimed Leverkusen will surpass Roma on goal-difference. So I didn't care to check much. My bad

Posted by: X-Offender Dec 10 2015, 05:50 PM

Your TV reporter needs to change job.

Posted by: han2503 Dec 10 2015, 09:47 PM

Not that Roma deserve any praise mind you, they did everything aside from literally shooting their feet off to try and sabotage their own chances.

Aside from the opener against Barca they were simply an embarrassment to the league.

I still stand by what I said, .i.e I think first and second tier teams in Italy are better than their German counter-parts. Bayern aside, who are light-years ahead of any team in Italy or any other team in Germany for that matter, I think it's pretty even but Italian teams have a bit more quality.

I don't think EL for example is a good medium to test that theory though, because we all know that generally speaking, Italian sides tend to place far less importance on it. Take Fiorentina for example or Lazio last season, they are/were very good in the league but when push came to shove, they prioritised the EL below it, Fiorentina are doing great in the league but have been pretty sub-par in the EL. After all this is at the core of why Italy lost that 4th spot to Germany in the first place.

Posted by: X-Offender Dec 11 2015, 01:49 PM

I don't think so, Han. Unlike in the past, winning the EL grants you access to the CL. For example, if Napoli hadn't been KO'd by Dnipro last season and won against Sevilla in the final, they'd be in the CL this season. This holds especially true for teams like Lazio and Fiorentina, who generally speaking have it difficult to access the first three spots in the league.

You'll see, when push comes to shove, they will field their best possible line-ups.

Posted by: han2503 Dec 11 2015, 04:26 PM

It's a great incentive, no doubt about it, but I still don't see clubs from Italy taking it as seriously as the German and Spanish sides do.

Fielding your best line-up is one thing, half @ssing it is another.

Posted by: X-Offender Dec 11 2015, 05:04 PM

You don't think because of the past, but the past doesn't apply anymore. Two Italians side were present in last year's semi finals, so that should be proof enough for you.

Posted by: X-Offender Dec 14 2015, 03:13 PM

Juve-Bayern and Roma-Madrid. And Fiorentina-Tottenham, Napoli-Villareal and Lazio-Galatasary for the EL.

Super tough draw for the Italians. I for once believe that if Roma manage to get back on their feet by February, they can actually defeat Madrid, which this season are anything but fearsome. But if it's the same usual BS Roma, they're gonna get floored.

As for Juve, it'll be a close one, but Bayern will definitely pass through.

Posted by: X-Offender Mar 16 2016, 10:43 PM

Man, Juve so unlucky!

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Mar 16 2016, 10:54 PM

But isn't it typical Allegri though? Decided to draw back too early, needlessly picked a hurt Mandzukic and Sturaro to come in,...

Posted by: kurtsimonw Mar 16 2016, 11:12 PM

The difference, aside from a wrongly disallowed goal, was Bayern players deciding to ignore their coach for the last 30 minutes

Proving more and more each year that Messi/Xaviesta made Pep IMO.

Posted by: X-Offender Mar 16 2016, 11:45 PM

Juve had two clear-cut chances in front of Neur that would have sent the game 3-0 and closed things. They were just unlucky. Sturaro coming for Khedira was understandable, but they needed Morata for counter-attacks. Once Mandzukic came in Juve practically stopped attacking.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Mar 17 2016, 12:01 AM

Sturaro was goddamn awful though.

Posted by: X-Offender Mar 17 2016, 12:16 AM

His fault, no Allegri's. Someone a-la Gattuso was much needed in that scenario, but Sturaro failed to deliver completely.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Mar 17 2016, 12:24 AM

Sturaro is not near Gattuso. He's Ambrosini at best, but Allegri has a stange fixation an that guy, who delivered rarely so far (bar that fluke in Turin). But Khedira wasn't out of steam yet, why change the integral piece of the defense-offense movement?

Also, just like he did with Milan, he decided to park the bus way too early. This actually gave Bayern room to do their thing and come closer. I still think that after leading 2-0 at halftime he should have done some smarter subs and the game would be in their pocket. But yes, mostly it was bad luck.

Posted by: kurtsimonw Mar 17 2016, 12:47 AM

Was Morata tired? Otherwise that sub made no sense. I just think in ET the game was over anyway. Bayern had the mental and Juve players would have the disallowed goal in mind. Once you feel beaten unfairly you are always going to lose.

Posted by: Fillipo Simone Mar 17 2016, 01:25 AM

I don't think so, but then again, maybe. I think it was rather what Heynckens did in that Chelsea-Bayern finale years ago when he took off Müller couple of minutes before the end, expecting to win. A needless sub.