[Jako19]

If i were to rate the Uefa cup.. i see it pretty much at the second(lesser) champion of europe.. It gives teams like Zenit, Galatasaray, & Feyenoord a chance to win something in europe because we all know they would not have enough depth in their squad to truely compete in the CL

[acid911]

This is one of the reasons I don't rate the UEFA Cup... it's like... OK you are not good enough for the CL... so we send you to the UEFA Cup...

Well, unless they completely revamped it, to be something like a true Champions League (with home and away matches, instead of a tournament), and then devise another as the European Cup, we'll have to live with it. Having a true League format will mean much more $$$, so maybe we'll see the idea go through.

Milan won't do so well in that format, then. (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Leagues and Milan don't go hand in hand. It's the knockout style tournament that's our forte. Much like Liverstools.

[kurtsimonw]

Considering the number of teams that enter the final stage of the competition there's no doubt that it's as powerful as it gets. It's a fact that for example Moldova's champions are not a better team than Italy's / Spain's / England's 4th team...

The latter stages of a competition means nothing, it's the competition as a whole. In this format you get about 20 crappys teams, in the European Cup format, alot, lot less.

The only way to increase the quality of the competition is to lessen the number of teams allowed to participate. Then only the truly great teams would be allowed to enter... but in my opinion the 36 that get in are rightfully there.

I still don't understand how you'd like things to be though. Would you care explain?

The way they were before. Because it's getting 'too easy' to forfeit your own league to do well in the Champions League - like Liverpool and Milan have done alot recently. In modern day football, there aren't too many teams who have won the league to earn their right into the competition, then done well in the league AND Champions League the next season. Does it not seem stupid to you that Liverpool were the best team in Europe a few years ago, while being the 5th best team in their own league?

I really can't see why you say the CL is 2nd rate... it's the most prestigious competition and every single player longs to play in it... your own Barry said he wants Liverpool in order to play CL football. It surely is CL football he is after cause he does not have more chances to win the PL with Liverpool than he has with Villa...  (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Of course they want to play in it, but I bet that it'd be considered even more prestigious if only the league winners got in it. Because you wouldn't take it for granted when you are in it, even Chelsea and United players would really appreciate it, but in its current format they have as much chance of winning the Champions League as they do the Carling Cup.

Then again, on here I'm talking to people who get to see their team play in the Champions League year after year, and even being in the UEFA Cup is considered a massive failure, so I'm not sure you get it really.

As for Celtic and Rangers, they are considered 2nd rate because their championship is considered 2nd rate, 1st rate being Premier League, Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga.
Same for Ajax. They have won so many but still they are now low in prestige because the Dutch league is comparatively weak.

But then you're saying that crappy teams in Serie A are better than Celtic/Rangers, which is not the case. Because they're in a first rate league they must be a first rate team, surely?

[dst]

The latter stages of a competition means nothing, it's the competition as a whole. In this format you get about 20 crappys teams, in the European Cup format, alot, lot less.

I don't get what you mean here.

The way they were before. Because it's getting 'too easy' to forfeit your own league to do well in the Champions League - like Liverpool and Milan have done alot recently. In modern day football, there aren't too many teams who have won the league to earn their right into the competition, then done well in the league AND Champions League the next season. Does it not seem stupid to you that Liverpool were the best team in Europe a few years ago, while being the 5th best team in their own league?

You see, I don't link the CL with the domestic championships this way. I mean... certainly, to me, Milan winning it in '07 and Liverpool in '05 while doing crap in the league is not the same as United winning both or even Chelsea challenging for both. But the competition itself is not less challenging because teams tend to do that. If anything, it's more challenging. What I'm saying is, the clubs make their own choices and I don't agree with focusing on one target but their choices on this matter don't spoil the competition.

And I'm with you, I'd love it if only champions entered but only in a 16 team format with a ranking system as in Tennis. Otherwise it'd be utter crap.
But by the way things are I think the competition is very strong and very high in quality. I don't know what you mean by 2nd rate but to me it sounds bad and I certainly don't think the CL is anything but a great competition.
I think you are stuck with the idea that only champions should enter? Why should only the champions enter? Is it meant to be just for those teams? Why shouldn't more teams have a chance? Why are lower league teams allowed to participate in the domestic cups, do they not deserve to?
If the CL should only be for the champions then by the same logic the FA Cup should only be for Premier League clubs. The other have nothing to do with it, they are of lower quality...

Of course they want to play in it, but I bet that it'd be considered even more prestigious if only the league winners got in it. Because you wouldn't take it for granted when you are in it, even Chelsea and United players would really appreciate it, but in its current format they have as much chance of winning the Champions League as they do the Carling Cup.

Agreed. I understand what you're saying. That's why, even if I despise Real, I always thought that what they did back when the EC first took place was amazing.

But then you're saying that crappy teams in Serie A are better than Celtic/Rangers, which is not the case. Because they're in a first rate league they must be a first rate team, surely?

Rangers played Serie A's fourth team, Fiorentina in the semis of the UEFA Cup last season. They were not worse than the Viola but they were not better either...
I think the differences have widened and now the gap in quality is huge between the top leagues and the rest of them. There are only one or two good teams in them and even those are not better/much better than the top leagues' top 4 or 5 teams. And I'm talking about the mid-quality championships. The rest cannot even be compared.

[kurtsimonw]

I don't get what you mean here.

You said something to do with only the real powerful teams make the latter stages of the competition, but that means nothing to me really. Powerful teams can make the latter stages of any domestic competition too.

I don't get what you mean here.

You see, I don't link the CL with the domestic championships this way. I mean... certainly, to me, Milan winning it in '07 and Liverpool in '05 while doing crap in the league is not the same as United winning both or even Chelsea challenging for both. But the competition itself is not less challenging because teams tend to do that. If anything, it's more challenging. What I'm saying is, the clubs make their own choices and I don't agree with focusing on one target but their choices on this matter don't spoil the competition.

I sort of agree with what you're saying, but I don't think it's right that you win that tournement while doing bad in your league. In my view you have to win the league the previous season (To qualify for it by right in my eyes) or win the league in the same season, otherwise I consider it a '2nd rate win'. That's just how I feel.

If the CL should only be for the champions then by the same logic the FA Cup should only be for Premier League clubs. The other have nothing to do with it, they are of lower quality...

No, the FA Cup is the Football Association Cup, so anybody who is a member of the FA can enter. The League Cup on the other hand is only for league teams, so the ametuers can't enter. So this makes sense to me.

Rangers played Serie A's fourth team, Fiorentina in the semis of the UEFA Cup last season. They were not worse than the Viola but they were not better either...

Celtic beat Man U the other year, Fenerbahce beat Sevilla this season. So it doesn't always work that way.

I think the differences have widened and now the gap in quality is huge between the top leagues and the rest of them. There are only one or two good teams in them and even those are not better/much better than the top leagues' top 4 or 5 teams. And I'm talking about the mid-quality championships. The rest cannot even be compared.

Winning a league is winning a league. If teams that finish 2nd in Italy, Spain and England think they deserve the spot more than somebody that wins the Maltese championship then there's just one thing to tell them. Shut up and win your own league, simple as that.

But that's the problem with todays football. The World only cares about the best teams in the best leagues. Not only does a team that finishes 4th in Italy/England/Spain get into the Champions League, they get seeded as well! Not only that, but they have a group stage, as an insurance policy that if they do have a bad game, they still have plenty of time to qualify, whereas in a knockout competition, a bad game means you'll probably go out.

That's jus my opinion. I believe it should just be the league Champions + the holder of the competition in a straight draw knockout with no seeds. But UEFA is too bothered about protecting it's favoured countries and teams, so it'll never happen.

[dst]

You said something to do with only the real powerful teams make the latter stages of the competition, but that means nothing to me really. Powerful teams can make the latter stages of any domestic competition too.

By final stage I meant from September onwards... you really think that out of the 32 team that participate 20 of them are crap? (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
Then that means 4 of the teams that make the final 16 are also crap... that can't be right...

I sort of agree with what you're saying, but I don't think it's right that you win that tournement while doing bad in your league. In my view you have to win the league the previous season (To qualify for it by right in my eyes) or win the league in the same season, otherwise I consider it a '2nd rate win'. That's just how I feel.

Yeah, that's how I feel too.

No, the FA Cup is the Football Association Cup, so anybody who is a member of the FA can enter. The League Cup on the other hand is only for league teams, so the ametuers can't enter. So this makes sense to me.

Now this is what I meant when I said you stick to the title... what if the CL was called the UEFA Cup? Then would it be right that every team should have a chance in it, including non-league winners?
It's just how they call it, the competition in its essence is just the same.

Celtic beat Man U the other year, Fenerbahce beat Sevilla this season. So it doesn't always work that way.

Yes it works both ways because the teams under discussion are not so far apart in terms of quality.
In terms of quality I think the way the teams are picked is the right one. Of course I'm a romantic and like you I'd like to see only the champions in it but that certainly would be a downsize in quality.
I've talking about quality right from the start here, not how things should be.

Winning a league is winning a league. If teams that finish 2nd in Italy, Spain and England think they deserve the spot more than somebody that wins the Maltese championship then there's just one thing to tell them. Shut up and win your own league, simple as that.

It's all a matter of how you look at it.
In terms of quality the 2nd/3rd/4th team in those competitions are much stronger than the Maltese champions.
In terms of achievement it's the same. I don't think the Maltese champions would be able to finish in the same position as they do.
But in terms of the heart and core of football the champions are champions and the Maltese champions should get a place.

It's only a matter of what the criteria is. Right now, the criteria is quality of the team and that's what you disagree with it, isn't it?

But that's the problem with todays football. The World only cares about the best teams in the best leagues. Not only does a team that finishes 4th in Italy/England/Spain get into the Champions League, they get seeded as well! Not only that, but they have a group stage, as an insurance policy that if they do have a bad game, they still have plenty of time to qualify, whereas in a knockout competition, a bad game means you'll probably go out.

That's jus my opinion. I believe it should just be the league Champions + the holder of the competition in a straight draw knockout with no seeds. But UEFA is too bothered about protecting it's favoured countries and teams, so it'll never happen.

To me it's not a problem. I'd enjoy the competition in any case... for different reasons.

[kurtsimonw]

It's only a matter of what the criteria is. Right now, the criteria is quality of the team and that's what you disagree with it, isn't it?

To me it's not a problem. I'd enjoy the competition in any case... for different reasons.

Sort of, yes.

I still enjoy it, but it's easier to enjoy it if you support Milan as they're one of the 'protected' teams. While Villa will rarely ever qualify, and when we do will probably be put in a group with 2 top teams, instead of maybe getting a fairer draw if it was done properly, so there's almost no point in most teams qualifying.

[dst]

I still enjoy it, but it's easier to enjoy it if you support Milan as they're one of the 'protected' teams. While Villa will rarely ever qualify, and when we do will probably be put in a group with 2 top teams, instead of maybe getting a fairer draw if it was done properly, so there's almost no point in most teams qualifying.

It has nothing to do with Milan. I will be still enjoying it next season... and I surely had great time watching the latter stages when Milan were knocked out last season.
I even said I would not watch the Chelski vs Football's Britney Spears encounters cause the I was disappointed by their previous clashes but I still could not do it... and I like neither of those two teams.

In my opinion there should be no draws. They should do what's been done in Tennis, even in the group stage.

[kurtsimonw]

In my opinion there should be no draws. They should do what's been done in Tennis, even in the group stage.

That wouldn't be the worst idea ever.

But we have jack@sses in charge of UEFA, well, they're not quite at the level of a jack@ss yet, they're not that good.

[Jako19]

Haha personally I think there should be no draws in football at all.. I hate them, and I hate P.K's, I think they should play untill some one scores and truly wins. But maybe thats just cuz im American and none of our major sports ever end in ties.

[kurtsimonw]

No penalties!? Even though we suck at them, I don't think anything creates more drama in the sporting World than a penalty shoot-out!

[Jako19]

Drama, no nothing compares. But a true winner, i dont think so, example of this would be Rangers vs Florintina. Rangers didnt even attack it pissed me off so much cuz they knew that they had a better chance winning in pks than actually playing football the way its supposed to be played

[kurtsimonw]

But even if you had that 'next goal wins' scenario, it could still be the same. Fiorentina could dominate the whole game, then Rangers score a fluke goal and win it, that's no different to penalties, except with penalties you have 5 chances to make amends, with next goal wins, there's no chances.

[dst]

Penalties or not, I would not really mind. Like Kurt said, the drama in it is immense but I think it's an unfair way to end a tie. What I think should be done if a game ends in a draw is a repeat of the game if it is possible (like in a final) or extra time periods of 25 or so minutes with 3 substitutions allowed in each one and even a player substituted allowed to come on again from the 2nd period onwards. Or maybe that's just crazy. (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[Jako19]

No that does not sound crazy at all that similar to the idea i was thinking about. I guess im not a fan of Pk's cuz two years in a row my team lost in the state finals on Pk's when the team we were playing had like 2 shots on goal the whole game. I would rather lose on a fluke goal cuz then some one ligitamently scored. And when Milan lost to L.P on Pks i got sick for like a week.