[morgoth]

Guts is when you take a team who's average age is well above 30 and go beyond all expectations and criticism to achieve something, that made Europe stand up and applaud.

No no, that's not guts, in fact it has a little to do with the coach! It's the player who understood that if they don't play football, their season would be over in march. The only thing that Carlos could have done is asking for some pity because his job was at risk after the first leg against Bayern. It's also some luck, considering the draw, but who doesn't need luck in life?

Motivation ?! He brought the team back to life after Istanbul, that night the team was shattered, the season after that the team only got stronger. What more ?! Oh another ?! He took the team last season to European glory, when most other coaches and their teams would have not withstood the pressure.

Come on, are you serious? I think you're confusing the club's character with the coach's. We're talking about Milan here not some random club ... The team got stronger after Istanbul?! We (may be) had the same quality for a year, but after that we lost some great players and the quality of the play dropped a lot, so don't tell me the team got stronger, unless you're talking about the mental strength.

What Andrea Pirlo is today, is because of Carlo Ancelotti. And Seedorf ? I mean, I cant criticize him, the man is (as Desailly dubbed him) a junction in the heart of the Milan midfield, most team  would kill for a midfielder like him.

Yeah, Desailly is funny at times ... I know Seedorf is a great player especially in the great occasions and so is Pirlo, but you can't let someone who's not showing anything but cr@p on the field! Those guys needs to taste the bench, they know the coach too well, so they play only when they want to because they don't have any concurrence. This is no healthy for a team!
Oh, and what Pirlo is today (the superstar stature) is because of Carlo, yes but the talent was always there.

It is always easy to criticize my friend, seeing has hindsight is always 50-50. And I am not one to tell you agree with me or don't, I just hope you can see that there are different aspects that you need to consider.

Don't worry, I'm done criticizing, I developed apathy regarding Milan, and believe me I considered more than one aspect before condemning our management.

Of course Seedorf has more freedom when he is behind the strikers ... With that said, you need to take into account that there is a balance in midfield that the coach needs to pay heed to. Something us fans don't necessarily comprehend.

Isn't it exactly what I was talking about? (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

I don't think Pirlo has motivation problems. Along with Gattuso he has the highest number of appearances by a mile (also considering the games he's played with the Italian NT) and I think it's tiredness more than anything.

I didn't say it was motivation, it's more of a desire. I honestly think that he's preparing to the EURO and doesn't want to get injured.
In another hand, it's true that he plays a lot, but you look at the way he plays, you'll notice that it's logical. He doesn't actually run like Rino or Kaka, that's why he tires less than the others.

[Rossoneri7]

No no, that's not guts, in fact it has a little to do with the coach! It's the player who understood that if they don't play football, their season would be over in march. The only thing that Carlos could have done is asking for some pity because his job was at risk after the first leg against Bayern. It's also some luck, considering the draw, but who doesn't need luck in life?

Ok, please .. We are talking about top flight football here. The manager (coach) along with his staff are paid in millions each year to do their job (and we have no idea what they do from one sunday to another). It is not about who is the most risk taker or who is the least or gutless ... Each coach has a style of play. I mean, you cant watch Wenger's Arsenal and say ok I like how they play why cant Milan play like that ... You just can't Wenger adapts a one touch, fast tempo build up play with the ball on the ground. Ancelotti's Milan play 'chess', smart, slow tempo, highly tactical play ... Capello is that of a defensive coach etc etc ...

It is his style style. And despite this being very bad season (in comparison to what Carlo has given this club), he has done very well in giving back this club it's Champions League pedigree.

Come on, are you serious? I think you're confusing the club's character with the coach's. We're talking about Milan here not some random club ... The team got stronger after Istanbul?! We (may be) had the same quality for a year, but after that we lost some great players and the quality of the play dropped a lot, so don't tell me the team got stronger, unless you're talking about the mental strength.

Yes, this is Milan. And yes Milan is the greatest club (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/96.gif) ... But still, referring to motivation, the coach brought the team back together and made them even stronger (of course mentally (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

The coach is the first one to receive criticism for a season like ours and the first one to receive praise when he wins a trophy. It's either black or white from a fan's point of view .. And I'm not expecting any different from anyone here (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ... Just don't go full out on a coach who has brought us so much joy over the last six years .. Who knows, we might reminisce a couple of yrs down the road when he's gone, just like the time of Sacchi (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, Desailly is funny at times ... I know Seedorf is a great player especially in the great occasions and so is Pirlo, but you can't let someone who's not showing anything but cr@p on the field! Those guys needs to taste the bench, they know the coach too well, so they play only when they want to because they don't have any concurrence. This is no healthy for a team!
Oh, and what Pirlo is today (the superstar stature) is because of Carlo, yes but the talent was always there.

The talent was always there, but the position that Pirlo plays in now (the deep lying midfielder), that is all Carlo ... And as for Seedorf, yeah he tends to seem unmotivated at times. And I do sometimes wish he was on the bench ... But overall, when he is on form, he is one of the best midfielders in Europe.

Don't worry, I'm done criticizing, I developed apathy regarding Milan, and believe me I considered more than one aspect before condemning our management.

Considering this the worst season of Carlo's reign ... I think he has done considerably well in his time here. I mean, Barca won the CL and La Liga in 2006 and have been dry for two years running, they have the best players in the world from the defense to the attack .. and their bench is very rich.

It's not a matter of had the management bought this player or that player ... more of a how much have we won. And no team has won as much as this in the span of Carlo's reign.

[morgoth]

Ok, please .. We are talking about top flight football here. The manager (coach) along with his staff are paid in millions each year to do their job (and we have no idea what they do from one sunday to another). It is not about who is the most risk taker or who is the least or gutless ... Each coach has a style of play. I mean, you cant watch  Wenger's Arsenal and say ok I like how they play why cant Milan play like that ... You just can't Wenger adapts a one touch, fast tempo build up play with the ball on the ground. Ancelotti's Milan play 'chess', smart, slow tempo, highly tactical play ... Capello is that of a defensive coach etc etc ...

Of course every coach has his style, but what I'm trying to talk about are the changes you make when your original/preferred tactics don't work, when you need to make a substitution because your team is struggling, and in that matter Carlo has no clue at all. We all know Carlo's favourite formation is the tree one, but he always changes to a 4-4-1-1 at best you get the 4-4-2. Even now that he has Pato, he doesn't use him because he's afraid to play with 2 strikers (even against Livorno). Last summer he said he was working on a new 3 men defence, have seen it in the games? Of course not, even when we were losing to the likes of Atalanta he didn't use it! Why? do you think he didn't because Nesta-Paolo-Kala is a bad combo or because he was afraid to fail? My bet is on the second choice!

It is his style style. And despite this being very bad season (in comparison to what Carlo has given this club), he has done very well in giving back this club it's Champions League pedigree.
Yes, this is Milan. And yes Milan is the greatest club (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/96.gif) ... But still, referring to motivation, the coach brought the team back together and made them even stronger (of course mentally (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

Again, I think it's like more than 70% due to the quality of the players we have (the starting eleven)

The coach is the first one to receive criticism for a season like ours and the first one to receive praise when he wins a trophy. It's either black or white from a fan's point of view .. And I'm not expecting any different from anyone here (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ... Just don't go full out on a coach who has brought us so much joy over the last six years .. Who knows, we might reminisce a couple of yrs down the road when he's gone, just like the time of Sacchi  (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, I think I never said or even thought that! In fact, for me it's 70% the management's fault. But what I can't stand is a coach who can't be bossy and sticks with his ideas (formations) no matter what.

The talent was always there, but the position that Pirlo plays in now (the deep lying midfielder), that is all Carlo ... And as for Seedorf, yeah he tends to seem unmotivated at times. And I do sometimes wish he was on the bench ... But overall, when he is on form, he is one of the best midfielders in Europe.
Considering this the worst season of Carlo's reign ... I think he has done considerably well in his time here. I mean, Barca won the CL and La Liga in 2006 and have been dry for two years running, they have the best players in the world from the defense to the attack .. and their bench is very rich.

It's not a matter of had the management bought this player or that player ... more of a how much have we won. And no team has won as much as this in the span of Carlo's reign.

I know that Pirlo's position is Carlo's idea and I think it was his better one, but sometimes even if you like your players like your own children you have to have a strong character, and let them know when they're not doing well, and just like a father would do punish them if necessary. That's what Carlo lacks.

Barcelona is another story, they have some trouble makers and clans, their squad is not united like Milan is (and that's the main reason of our last year's success) so you can't compare them with Milan, it's another level of organisation. Having said that, I really think Carlo's success is due to the club's philosophy, to the quality of the players we have, to the unity that exists between the player ... etc the coach's skills have very little to do with our success, I think any other decent coach would have achieved the same things Carlo did. May be it's just me, but I'm quite sure about it.

[Rossoneri7]

Of course every coach has his style, but what I'm trying to talk about are the changes you make when your original/preferred tactics don't work, when you need to make a substitution because your team is struggling, and in that matter Carlo has no clue at all. We all know Carlo's favourite formation is the tree one, but he always changes to a 4-4-1-1 at best you get the 4-4-2. Even now that he has Pato, he doesn't use him because he's afraid to play with 2 strikers (even against Livorno). Last summer he said he was working on a new 3 men defence, have seen it in the games? Of course not, even when we were losing to the likes of Atalanta he didn't use it! Why? do you think he didn't because Nesta-Paolo-Kala is a bad combo or because he was afraid to fail? My bet is on the second choice!

This is exactly what I am trying to clear up to u (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ... What do you mean he has no clue ?! He needs to take into account the opposition's tactics, he has over a zillion things going in his head during the course of a match, he has to maintain a certain rhythm with the team on the pitch ...

It's not like he sticks with the tree just because he doesn't know. He is a renowned coach; he does play with 3 cb when Milan have possession one of the backs pushes forward and three stay back.

Maybe you have a different idea in mind to the way Milan should play ... But that doesn't mean Carlo doesn't know what he is doing ... Not many coaches can do what Carlo did in the span of his time here.

Again, I think it's like more than 70% due to the quality of the players we have (the starting eleven)

If that is what you think ... Then by all means (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, I think I never said or even thought that! In fact, for me it's 70% the management's fault. But what I can't stand is a coach who can't be bossy and sticks with his ideas (formations) no matter what.

Again, don't contradict yourself, this is Milan not Chelsea.

I know that Pirlo's position is Carlo's idea and I think it was his better one, but sometimes even if you like your players like your own children you have to have a strong character, and let them know when they're not doing well, and just like a father would do punish them if necessary. That's what Carlo lacks.

Barcelona is another story, they have some trouble makers and clans, their squad is not united like Milan is (and that's the main reason of our last year's success) so you can't compare them with Milan, it's another level of organisation. Having said that, I really think Carlo's success is due to the club's philosophy, to the quality of the players we have, to the unity that exists between the player ... etc the coach's skills have very little to do with our success, I think any other decent coach would have achieved the same things Carlo did. May be it's just me, but I'm quite sure about it.

That in itself is true ... But the way the team plays, the different tactical setups within the pitch is due to the manager. I mean, Galliani and Silvio are not stupid to employ any average coach and say 'here are 11 of the best in Europe go do something with them.' There needs to be a game plan a strategy ... Something Carlo has engraved into this very team.

[Jack Sparrow]

My opinions on Carletto are already known here...so I don't need to air it again. I'm starting to feel like a broken record...so I know how you guys feel. (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm with Carlo, like LaPalma says 1899%.

[morgoth]

This is exactly what I am trying to clear up to u (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)   ... What do you mean he has no clue ?! He needs to take into account the opposition's tactics, he has over a zillion things going in his head during the course of a match, he has to maintain a certain rhythm with the team on the pitch ...

It's not like he sticks with the tree just because he doesn't know. He is a renowned coach; he does play with 3 cb when Milan have possession one of the backs pushes forward and three stay back.

Maybe you have a different idea in mind to the way Milan should play ... But that doesn't mean Carlo doesn't know what he is doing ... Not many coaches can do what Carlo did in the span of his time here.

I'm not judging Carlo on what he thinks (I don't don't have that power (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ). I'm judging him n what he actually does, the substitutions he makes, the tactical changes ... etc So may be you're right, he knows a lot, but when he doesn't execute than it's more of stupidity (or guts) than being clueless!
Oh, he never actually played with 3 CB's, he plays with 4 defenders (2 of them being Cafu and Janku) and when one of the wing b acks go forward the other stays at the back, so there are 3 guys a the back but he doesn't play with 3 CB's at all, the only time he did it it was against Barcelona (Group stage, 1-0) and it was more a 5-3-2 with Cafu and Sergio in the flanks.

Again, don't contradict yourself, this is Milan not Chelsea.

Where's the contradiction, Milan having a bossy coach? (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
What was Sacchi, Cappello?

That in itself is true ... But the way the team plays, the different tactical setups within the pitch is due to the manager. I mean, Galliani and Silvio are not stupid to employ any average coach and say 'here are 11 of the best in Europe go do something with them.' There needs to be a game plan a strategy ... Something Carlo has engraved into this very team.

Yeah sure, but when it comes to decision, crucial ones, where's Carlo? What's actually the role of a coach? He's there for the tactical aspect and to motivate the players more than anything else, they have coaches for the training, the gym, a medical staff that follows their progression and health ... etc So he's role is to make the difference by setting up the formation and the tactical moves+motivation. Carlo did it very well for the first 4-5 years but then when he lost some key players he couldn't do anything, he was lost because he couldn't adapt, he became too predictable, had no creativity, that's what I'm talking about. I didn't even talk about the motivation issue, the emulation, and the strong character ... Do you remember when Billy said something like "Carlo cannot motivate the players anymore" do you remember the Seedorf and Kaka incident, I sure he's the only coach on the planet that could say something like that "Why should argue with the future ballon d'or winner?" (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[morgoth]

DP nooooooooo
My internet connection sucks, I'm sorry for the double posts (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

This post has been edited by morgoth: Apr 30 2008, 01:19 PM

[Tennie]

So this morning's training has taken place (today is double training). After warm ups, the team divided into groups to work on specific things.

Bonera, Pato, Cafu, Pirlo, Gattuso, Gourcuff & Willy worked on exercises in the Sand Pit of Doom.

Simic, Nesta, Digao, Kaladze, Paloschi & Gilardino worked on the reduced pitch on sprints followed by crosses to the strikers.

On the reduced pitch, Seedorf and Kaka worked on a series of sprints and ifnally at muscle strengthening exercises.

The keepers worked with their coaches on keeper exercises.

Nobody else was mentioned by name, but there is an article about how the team will be playing without Il Capitano. (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Rossoneri7]

Well look ... The way I see it, the Milan board know better than any of us. They have done superbly for over twenty years now, and know the pros and cons of the management and sport aspects of the game at this level. Hence they know who to appoint as coach.


Sure you can have your go at Carlo and as I stated earlier I'm not gonna dictate how you should or you shouldn't (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ... You want to call him stupid, incompetent, unmotivated for the cause, gutless, or clueless .. Well that is your perspective and your free to think in whichever way that suits you.


But then again, hindsight is 50-50 my friend, and as much pulling and pushing anyone wants to do there will always be another point of view. Maybe it is more logical, maybe yours could be the more logical who am I to judge (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


We are mere spectators of the game, all we see is the team go onto the pitch from Sunday to Sunday, we see the team once every week and that is it. What happens between those Sundays we are the clueless ones (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) We are the ones who sit in this forum and feed off of what the media throw at us. But under no circumstances can we really know what goes on from Sunday to Sunday.


Then when the Sunday comes ... Carlo has a certain interpretation of the game. While we sit back on our lazy boys, and assume we know exactly what is happening and Carlo must be dumb not to think the way we do (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif) .... "Why doesn't he play Gourcuff instead of that lazy fat @ss Seedorf?!" "Why is he still fielding Pirlo when he clearly isn't fit to run?!" "Look at that dumb guy, bringing on Broochi for Gattuso when we are loosing !! I cant believe this" "$@%*&" "Had this been Mourinho in charge we wouldn't be in this mess" .... And your criticism of the coach could vary from one opinion to another ... While we all sit back and chill on our lazy boys watching the game finish off, we seem to be all experts on how this team should be managed by now. And it is no longer a mystery (managing the team) when we all seem to have gathered enough info from the game on the Sunday and start criticizing the coach for not conveying our ideas into action.


The weekend ends and you sit there trying to orchestrate the best possible solution for the better of the team; this is how he should play .. field a 3-4-3 .. this player should leave .. three new names should come .. the coach should leave .. Galliani needs hair transplant .. and you get to add whatever spice the media feed you into your assumptions. At this moment you start to get a feel that the decisions are so easy !! Why can't Carlo think like you, me, han, dst, Tennie, Jerry Springer, etc ...


But with all this in mind, do you honestly have any clue as to what the coach is doing from Sunday to Sunday ? Do you know why players cost millions of millions ? Do you know why the coach along with his staff earn millions in preparing this team in the best possible way to be fielded on the next Sunday ? Do you know the fitness levels of the players ? and on and on ..


All I am saying here is that Ancelotti is in charge of the most title winning club in the world. And at this level, not any coach can achieve what he has achieved. The club doesn't entrust this team along with all it's staff to any average Joe. Ancelotti is a one of the most sought after coaches in Europe; I mean his achievements along with his reputation proceeds him.


You want to talk football, lets talk about players (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Let's talk about Milan vs inter (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) ... But to sit here and criticize a world renowned coach, just because our thoughts are not conveyed by his actions, is not very constructive because in order for us to understand, we would have to manage a club first hand.


And yes I do remember when Billy said that a change of coach can only be healthy for the team. And look at where Man United are now. Then again, hindsight is 50-50 (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/innocent.gif)


p.s. My friend ... This is just my opinion here. If you honestly believe that Carlo is a clueless bum then by all means, I'm not here to drag this issue on any longer (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/king.gif)

[morgoth]

I agree with (almost (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ) all your post. You're talking about what happens between the games, yet I didn't talk about that, as I said above "I'm not judging Carlo on what he thinks" how can I? I'm only trying to analyse the situation, a problematic situation. I didn't call Carlo stupid, I said "If he has informations (we don't have) knows/sees thing we don't and don't use them to his advantage, than it's stupid" making a stupid decisions (at times) doesn't mean one is stupid!

So from your point if view, we fans shouldn't criticize the team, the management, the coach and the players? Of course not, if we do it, it's because we can't see the club we love in a situation that could have been avoided. I get pissed of when I see that Carlo on his bench, without pressure (from the management) whatever the score might be. I'm talking about logic here, and logic doesn't depend on the point of view or what someone might think. I say it's not healthy to run a company with that kind of statements "Ancelotti's job is secure no matter what the results might be", "why should criticize the future ballon d'or winner", "If I change my position on the field then it means that I'm the problem" when I saw Seedorf arguing with Carlo on the pitch it was a shock to me, of course Kaka, Seedorf, Pirlo, Kalac and even Ba are important to the club's balance and success, but does that give them the right to do what they want, this is called indiscipline. Of course, may be after the match Galliani or berlu went to talk with them and calmed the situation, but what do you think the players would think about the coach?

Talking about the Milan-merda, yes, in fact this is how we came to talk about Carlo, it started with the 2 striker issue and the guts remember? (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

P.S. I didn't say Carlo was clueless full stop, I said Calro is clueless when it comes to being creative, making subs and trying new tactics (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

P.S.2 I think I have a pretty good idea why the player are paid that much (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Tennie]

This afternoon's training has taken place. Standard drills, possession practice, practice game, and - this is new - special drills with the midfield and the LB/RB players. No player was mentioned by name.

[Bluesummers]

This afternoon's training has taken place. Standard drills, possession practice, practice game, and - this is new - special drills with the midfield and the LB/RB players. No player was mentioned by name.

is he gonna give them a day off?

[Tennie]

They had Monday off. (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jack Sparrow]

Question: Is it really called sand pit of doom or is it what the fish doll likes to call it?

[Tennie]

Nah, Sand Pit of Doom is just what I call it. 'Sand Pit' is the translation from the Italian. (IMG:http://cyrus.medialayer.net/~m1ke/milanfan.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)